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Will of the Necropolis
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Post by
334662
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
cheesechamp
hell pally's just got Ardent Defender buffed to the same level WoTN is currently... And that's in 3.2 which hasn't come out yet >.> That's how ridiculously good WoTN is.
How does that prove that wotn is "ridiculously good"? It just means that a pally spell got buffed. Blizzard didn't make that change because WotN gave DKs a huge advantage over paladins, they made the change because they want to equalize the tanking classes, something they've been trying to do since BC.
Just because it's better than a pally spell doesn't mean it's absurdly good. It just means it's better than a spell that's slightly worse. Shocking, I know.
Post by
334662
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Post by
cheesechamp
If it's better then another spell it would mean it's good no?
No, that doesnt mean it's good. It just means it's better than another spell. It is very possible that both spells are bad. For instance, just because arcane blast is a better dps spell for mages than frostbolt, doesn't make it good. FFB and fireball are castly superior to both spells.
As for your little rant about my "too much tps", I actually discovered tonight in our uld 25 that my tps actually is close to not even being enough, I can recall several trash pulls, as well as for the phases I was the MT on Kologarn that this warrior actually had more threat than me and had to stop his dps.
Post by
334662
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Post by
146010
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Post by
cheesechamp
Usually we don't employ tank switching, we mostly do that for Kolo due to his debuff, Mimi due to his massive burst, and Thorim because it's flat out necessary. We have done all of these fights(excluding Thorim) with 1 tank before, but find it easier to rotate tanks to lessen the strain on healers.
I believe the warrior pulling so much threat on Kologarn was a result of him not switching properly to the arms. Even if that isn't true, he is the only dps in the guild currently capable of pulling that much threat, and I have recommended that he get the threat reduction enchant to cloak. Most other dps are a bit behind me, but having that one means I need that much tps.
As for the trash pulls, I'm not talking about AoE trash, I'm talking mostly about the (forgive me I forget their names) guys that you have to separate, kill the spheres, and down at the same time.
I do understand that I was comparing apples to oranges so to speak, but it was the first example that came to mind, as the top end pve spec for mages is fireball with ttw, the next is ffb, and below those are arcane and frost.
Just because they are buffing the Paladin ability doesn't mean the DK ability similar to it is worth getting. It just means they are buffing paladins, that's it.
Post by
334662
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Post by
205531
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Post by
334662
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Post by
244242
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Post by
cheesechamp
Well, I'm tired, and my internet just got back to functioning status after a lightning storm blew out both of my surge protectors and both of my computers, ^&*!ing bull!@#$ best buy !@#$.
Anyways, I don't blame this warrior for putting out a ton of tps, he was doing roughly 6k dps on kologarn, thats bound to put out a ton of tps. My reason for switching specs was solely and entirely to put out more tps, Frost just wasn't cutting it, and now that I'm blood, I'm happy with my tps. I see no reason to switch to get less dps and more mitigation, this spec is working for me, and it will continue to work for me. That said, I'm done with this thread, thanks for your opinions.
Post by
svl007
bc lynri keeps on refering to this i'd like to give my thought about this talent aswell especially why Will of the Necropolis is very weak in it's current incarnation. bc of our massive hp pools. 2 hits won't kill us, even without WotN. However the 2nd hit will most likely have brought us below 35%hp, therefor using the effect. now all this would be nice if that would make us able to survive the 3rd hit. but that's hardly ever the case at least when talking about big hits that are threatening in the first place.
fe. 50k hp tank (which is upped a bit for easier calculation,but isn't really that important since the ideas behind it stay the same) boss hits for 20k
1st hit > 30khp (20k hit)
2nd hit>13khp (17k hit, WotN kicked in)
3rd hit>dead (13k hit, 7k overkill)
for tank to be able to survive the 3rd hit he needs to get healed for at least 7.001 if he wouldn't have WotN he would need a 10.001 heal. now i hope you will agree with me that a 10k heal really isn't very special especially considering you probably will have some hots on you. who will tick between hit 1 and hit 3. making the amount healed almost futile. on the other hand without heal both are dead. with heal both will survive.
only time WotN shines is when the 2nd hit would have killed you or it mitigates enough dmg for you to survive the 3rd hit. though when you think about option 2, that means the dmg has to be rather low so unless the fight require lots of moving from the healers or the hits land faster then the heals do, or the healers are slacking off (which is not something a talent should be picked for, that's what vent is for, yelling them back awake :p) only then that option really does anything bc else it will easily get healed through. if option 1 then there is no denying it's a good investment of talents bc else you would have died,
but
:
the same tank 50k would require a boss hitting for 25.000,5k to kill him in 2 hits
1st hit>24.999,5 hp (25.000,5k dmg)
2nd hit>3.749 hp(21.250dmg WoTN kicked in)
here raises a phproblem though, bc a warrior tank would just get killed (less hp and no such thing as woTN) on this boss unless the boss attacks so slow heals are guaranteed to land between hits (making WotN unnecesairy) (this is a problem bc of blizz 'bring the player not the class') and if he is not attacking slow even the dk will have a hell of a time staying alive, bc if in the next 15 seconds he get's hit twice in a row again he'll be dead aswell bc WotN will be on cd. so more then likely cd's will be chained here, but then you are back to the example of 20k hits.
when the boss start hitting for a tad over 27k dmg WotN won't even help you survive the 2nd hit.
other possibility is a boss who does weak hits, but has a skill which does massive dmg, bc those skills usually don't happen more often then every 15 sec, making sure you have WotN for every skill. this is the only situation were WotN is really usefull (assuming that without WotN you would take to much dmg and die). one consideration since warriors can tank everything in ulduar aswell and they have less EH then us and no WotN i dare to say there are no such situation currently in game where WotN is needed to survive that big hit. now before you say that there are bosses in ulduar that dk's are a lot better at, that's true, but one warrior can still do it and two that has nothing to do with WotN but everything with our ability to chain cd's.
to wrap it up, there is no denying WotN mitigates dmg, only question being does it mitigate the right dmg (as in the dmg that would have killed you other ways)? i'd say in 99% of the cases it doesn't. either you would have survived without it or you'll still die. the day it is required to survive a boss that boss will be nerfed very fast bc all the classes without a WotN will whine about it.
Conclusion: it's
not
a mandatory talent it reduces dmg and if you have the talent points it's a nice bonus, but if you need the talent points somewhere else bc you need more threat bc dps is pulling of you fe. the points are better spent there then in WotN.
for the reference i do have WotN bc i don't need the talent points to increase my tps, but that doesn't change the fact that WotN is quite lacklusterous. nor does it make cheesechamp a dk tanking in a dps spec which lynri o so nicely twisted the truth.
that ended as a big wall of text. oO
Post by
svl007
You haven't tried it in game >.< Really anything on paper can be done and it can look great or !@#$ty but on game can be the complete opposite. That's why simulation programs and etc can not be completely and 100% accurate... There's too many factors that come in that could change the entire situation.
hell pally's just got Ardent Defender buffed to the same level WoTN is currently... And that's in 3.2 which hasn't come out yet >.> That's how ridiculously good WoTN is.
Rather than add a new ability that felt like a clone of another class’s ability, we decided to buff an existing talent that was no longer cutting it. Ardent Defender has two important changes. The first is that the damage can no longer “skip over” the 35% health level – it will always be reduced. Secondly, it has a new effect that if a blow would kill you, it instead sets you to 30% health. This portion of the ability cannot occur more than once every 2 minutes. Think of it as a Last Stand that you don’t have to push.
=>so no ICD, they have a 30%dmg reduction compared to our 15%dmg reduction and when they would be killed they don't die but get 30% of their max hp. y that really sounds like WotN. WotN can hardly be called the little brother of this.
meaning they found WotN not good enough therefor made the paladins better so it could actually be usefull.
Post by
334662
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
svl007
no ICD
?
Internal CD as in WotN dmg reduction can only proc once every 15 seconds, whereas AD as it stands now can proc back to back.
also as i see it AD is a 3 talent point talent. there is no denying that in it's current form it is quite underwelming, however in 3.2 it will go up and far beyond WotN
basicly where WotN will reduce dmg by 15% when you get dmg that reduces you below 35% every 15seconds.
AD will reduce dmg by 30% when you get dmg that reduces you below 35% without an ICD and on top of that will have an ability to prevent a wipe every 2min by turning what would be a killing blow in an i-life-with-30%-hp situation.
which isn't very balanced even without looking at the i-life-situation. it makes their AD a lot more valuable. not only will paladins have more EH then us in 3.2, but they will need significantly less healing to survive that 3rd hit (we are talking about 10-15k less healing which is quite a lot).
also i readed the talent very good and even if i didn't our pally tank has reminded me several times already.
I still don't agree that that would magicly make it a dps build, i'm sure if you would ask ppl who see that build if they think it's a dps or tank build most would say it's a tank build. you might not think it's the best build, but it doesn't make it any less of tank build.
also although a lot of fights require movement, very little require movement of all healers at the same time, not to forget most healers have some sort of instant heal to be used in such situations. also a lot of the fights you mentioned aren't fight where you can survive 3 back to back hits. which is a condition for it to be usefull.
tank movement doesn't come into play bc any tank worth his salt will make sure to not move out of los, especially when his hp is low. and on ignis the movement needed certainly doesn't put you out of los at any time.
My experience so far in ulduar, albight limited bc of exams(tomorrow last two Epidemiology and General Practisioning cheers!^^), hasn't really shown me any prove where WotN has saved my life, although i'll admit that's hard to really notice, bc we are talking about a few thousand hp here at max. i'd say the
best conclusion here is that if you have the talent points you should take it, but if you need the talent points somewhere else it's not totally idiotic to do so
(if the reason is you are losing aggro, not if you or your GM thinks you should put out that extra 50dps).
on a side note, 3.2 will make this talent a lot more usefull, bc our health cushion will be reduced leaving us with less reserve hp for the 3rd hit and and our physical mitigation nerfed making those hits themself bigger. all this will lead to more healing need to survive the 3rd hit, which could come to the point where WotN might actually become worth it, maybe even needed. although that last thing would be very alarming, bc then we would be relying on such a talent to survive through a bad string of (normal albeight hard) hits, basicly making unholy and probably also frost unable to do so (when they don't have their cd's up, which you can't have all the time). which i don't anticipate since we'll be right there with warriors when it comes to EH, we will however not stay our healers favourites :p
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