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Why bring a Rogue?
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Post by
TK0680
I'm by no means a Rogue expert (mine is 54 at the moment), but I wondered yesterday about what a Rogue can actually bring to a raid.
Damage? Yep, but not more damage than other DPS classes that also bring some sort of utility as well.
CC? In a sense, but not to the level of say a Hunter or Mage.
Raid buffs? Nope.
Replenishment? Nope.
Some sort of raid-wide proc (a la Rampage)? Nope (at least I don't think so - certainly not from assassination, correct me if I'm wrong, combat/sub rogues).
So, why do you bring a Rogue over a Hunter, DPS Death Knight, Retadin etc.? Obviously there must be reasons or we'd probably see much less Rogues in raids. I'd feel so much better if I knew what they were, though.
Post by
Liquoid
You probably haven't seen a competent rogue in your raid.
Post by
TK0680
You probably haven't seen a competent rogue in your raid.
Rogues I've raided with are at/near the top of the meters, so they're obviously not useless, but my point is that (to my untrained eye) you could swap them out for another DPS class that had more utility and not lose the DPS the Rogue brings. Am I wrong?
Post by
Liquoid
You probably haven't seen a competent rogue in your raid.
Rogues I've raided with are at/near the top of the meters, so they're obviously not useless, but my point is that (to my untrained eye) you could swap them out for another DPS class that had more utility and not lose the DPS the Rogue brings. Am I wrong?
Rogues shined in Ulduar beyond your expectation, believe it or not
Post by
TK0680
You probably haven't seen a competent rogue in your raid.
Rogues I've raided with are at/near the top of the meters, so they're obviously not useless, but my point is that (to my untrained eye) you could swap them out for another DPS class that had more utility and not lose the DPS the Rogue brings. Am I wrong?
Rogues shined in Ulduar beyond your expectation, believe it or not
In that they leave other DPS classes in the dust? In both replies you've basically just said "rogues are great", without telling me why I'm wrong. Don't misunderstand, I'm pretty sure I
am
wrong, but I'd love to know
why
I'm wrong.
Post by
dashihawk
You bring a rogue for the little extra DPS that they bring. Also Combat rogues can provide a 4% damage buff to bosses. But you mainly bring them to deversify your team. Afterall what fun would it be to have 25 druids that can provide all the roles required for a raid. Granted it would be tough but it is possible. But bringing a rogue just makes it so loot roles are more diversified.
Also they come in handy if you need a 15 second evasion tank. I know from experience that those 15 seconds are long enough to Brez your main tank and get him fully buffed up again for round 2 on XT hardmode.
Post by
134688
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Post by
TK0680
You bring a rogue for the little extra DPS that they bring. Also Combat rogues can provide a 4% damage buff to bosses. But you mainly bring them to deversify your team. Afterall what fun would it be to have 25 druids that can provide all the roles required for a raid. Granted it would be tough but it is possible. But bringing a rogue just makes it so loot roles are more diversified.
Also they come in handy if you need a 15 second evasion tank. I know from experience that those 15 seconds are long enough to Brez your main tank and get him fully buffed up again for round 2 on XT hardmode.
Thank you, there we go :)
Post by
dashihawk
Tricks of the Trade? Thats got to count for something not to mention sap? also don't forget the rogue will smash you in pvp..... :D
PvP is not what this conversation is going for.
But another point i forgot to make earlier is once you have all those raid buffs from the other classes you dont need to get them again. Yeah it is nice to have 4 pallies around for their buffs but do you really need that 5th just in case one of them doesnt buff? Or what about that druid MoTW is nice but do you really need another one that can do the same thing?
So once you got all your raid buffs coverd why would you not want to put in the best DPS slots possible? Granted the "Best" DPS possible isnt always a rogue but in most cases a rogue is not a bad choice.
Post by
134688
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Post by
391727
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Post by
dashihawk
I'm not sure, but
Expose Armor
could
be considered a raid buff.
It could be a raid buff but Warriors can keep that up a lot easier than rogues can. Especially if you are running with a prot warrior
Post by
TK0680
I'm not sure, but
Expose Armor
could
be considered a raid buff.
Fair point, I was going for things that no other class can provide, should have made that clearer.
Post by
4466
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98879
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438424
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Post by
DeathBlood
I'm by no means a Rogue expert (mine is 54 at the moment), but I wondered yesterday about what a Rogue can actually bring to a raid.
Damage? Yep, but not more damage than other DPS classes that also bring some sort of utility as well.
CC? In a sense, but not to the level of say a Hunter or Mage.
Raid buffs? Nope.
Replenishment? Nope.
Some sort of raid-wide proc (a la Rampage)? Nope (at least I don't think so - certainly not from assassination, correct me if I'm wrong, combat/sub rogues).
So, why do you bring a Rogue over a Hunter, DPS Death Knight, Retadin etc.? Obviously there must be reasons or we'd probably see much less Rogues in raids. I'd feel so much better if I knew what they were, though.
You're correct about Rogues not having replenishment and a raid-wide proc; but Rogues bring raid buffs, CC, and top damage to any raid.
3 Raid-Wide Buffs:
1)
Master Poisoner
- in deep Assassination. Increase crit chance by 3% for all damage dealers, including spellcasters.
2)
Savage Combat
- in deep Combat. Increases all physical damage by 4%.
3)
Hemorrhage
- in Subtlety. Also increases physical damage done to the target.
As mentioned,
Tricks of the Trade
is crucial to increasing your tank's threat, thus allowing more damage from every dps in the raid.
Subtlety Rogues get many combo points, and thus are probably your best bet to keep
Expose Armor
on the target. In addition, since Subtlety Rogues are providing more utility than damage compared to Assassination or Combat, Subtlety Rogues are the best for maintaining
Kick
rotation to stop boss spells.
All of this utility, but let's not forget CC.
Sap
is our most common CC, used to help control pulls. And if things go wrong, don't forget
Cheap Shot
,
Kidney Shot
,
Blind
,
Gouge
, and even
Dismantle
.
Rogues are also one of the toughest DPS to kill. Subtlety Rogues with
Cheat Death
have been known to survive crushing boss attacks and spells. Assassination Rogues with
Quick Recovery
help out your healers. All Rogues have
Feint
to reduce AoE damage by 50%. Rogues can even grab an add off of a healer, similar to an offtank, and pop
Evasion
to temporarily survive.
Cloak of Shadows
can also be used defensively to avoid spell damage.
And let's not forget that Rogues are one of the few classes than can escape combat completely. Rogue Engineers can use
Vanish
to survive a wipe, then use a
Gnomish Army Knive
to rez the healer, thus saving the entire raid.
All in all, Rogues bring effective raid-wide buffs, give the tank extra threat, cancel boss' spells, use CC to control pulls, have emergency CC to mitigate damage, and can even serve as an emergency offtank. Rogues are one of the toughest DPS classes to kill. Rogue Engineers can save the entire raid. All of this, combined with the fact that they top the damage meters, are reason enough to want a Rogue in your raid.
Ideally, at least 3 Rogues should be brought to every raid, one Assassination, one Combat, and one Subtlety.
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438424
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324990
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408252
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