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Whirlwind in defensive stance (what if)
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Post by
Sakkura
It is crappier than TC. It hits four targets at random. If I have six mobs, what are the odds it hits the four I want? Or it hits the targets that need more threat on them? I would rather Devastate on one target that I know I want to hit than randomly hit with one low threat WW.'
It isnt just that, its that extra threat built into devastate that makes it superior, not to mention the fact that you can control it with a mouseover. Unless you have four mobs or less, WW is not an AoE attack, its a multimob attack, and for situations where I am multimob tanking, (3-4) I would still rather TClap,SW, devastate rotation while queuing cleave. In a situation where I am AoE tanking, I just wish I could spam TClap. I never wish for WW.
1. What targets would you ever
not
want to hit when AoE tanking? Since you're using TC etc. anyway, there's not even any worry about breaking CC. WW would do more damage and threat than devastate with 4+ mobs in range, and even do you the favor of spreading it around a bit.
2. The extra threat built in is still less than the direct threat from damage. As for mouseovers, that's all fine and dandy, but multitarget attacks are still just plain better. More threat and less hassle of targeting/mouseovering other mobs, what's not to like?
PS: Even AoE attacks are not truly without limits. When sufficiently many enemies are hit by it, the damage per mob is reduced.
Post by
flakmeister
There is exactly one encounter currently available where our AoE tools prove slightly insufficient and that is Onyxia. Due to the "trickle" flow of the whelps I find gaps in time where picking them up is a major hassle and causes me to require more frantic movement than any of my other tanking colleagues.
We don't need Whirlwind, in its current form it'd be nigh on useless as Protection. What we DO need is a reduction in the cooldown of Thunderclap, with the appropriate nerf to damage to offset the higher frequency of attacks.
Post by
264711
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Post by
Shiverlynn
I'm amazed at the amount of people who don't want WW in Def stance. I myself said it wouldn't be necessary because we don't have aggro problems right now, but if they gave it to us, I'd only say yes yes yes please.
You want to be in control of your GCD in case a mob goes on your healer? Really, Taunt isn't on GCD, neither is Intervene.
Post by
Sakkura
I'll give you that you want to hit all mobs, but my point is, let's say mob A is a current priority, I can either mouseover Devastate (what is that 9 rage?), guaranteeing I hit Mob A with a high threat attack, or I can hit a WW for 22 rage, and pray to god it hits Mob A.
There is a chance, however, that it will hit mobs B,C,D, and E. Let's assume, then, that during the three seconds this mob gets out of range and whales on my healer... I would just rather be in control of my GCD's.
I know this is hypothical, and most likely improbable. But isn't that why we go into a raid with @ least 540 def? We are supposed to be SURE we can't be crit.
I suppose it could be useful, but i am not dying to get WW into my rotation when i'm not running Fury. I would much rather have a second and a half or so off the TC cooldown. (If WW got a Cleave-like threat boost maybe, but I don't believe it has one)
Also, for any situation where you want to use WW, Retaliation is better, and takes less concentration/rage/juggling. (CD permitting)
My point is, first and foremost, that the most urgent priority when AoE tanking is to keep threat on all mobs. Keeping a single mob under control within a pack is a piece of cake, but it sucks if all the other mobs suddenly pack their bags and move to mageland. Even if you add whirlwind to your rotation/priority, you will still have plenty of GCDs open for shield slams and the odd devastate. Added to your choice of which mob to target for autoattacks/cleaves, you should have plenty of threat on the skull (assuming anyone is even single-target DPSing it, which is rare nowadays).
And even if you should happen upon a situation where the mage is AoEing while the DPS DK is single-target nuking, having WW available in defensive stance just gives you extra control, by letting you choose between maximum overall threat output, or scaling back overall threat output a little in order to keep a specific mob under tight control.
Devastate, by the way, costs 12 rage rather than 9. Well, unless you spec into puncture (that's a no-no).
Losing aggro to a healer is a non-issue for any tank with a modicum of skill.
And retaliation doesn't really have anything at all to do with this. Retaliation requires stance-dancing and is a moderately long cooldown.
Post by
Meggie
Whirlwind with a tank weapon (read: a fast one hander) stinks. It hits for about 500 with a T9 geared tank. It can be tested with blade storm, this allows you to do whirlwind in defensive stance.
You are way better off timing your thunderclap. Thunderclap cannot be used in berserker stance, this seems to be pretty much the trace off. Way back Thunderclap was exclusively for battle stance. Blizzard providing thunderclap to defensive stance is the whirlwind you want.
Using a fast one hander, thunderclap does more base damage, has a shorter cooldown, adds extra threat, hits more mobs and can be enhanced with extra crit.
Post by
179128
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
skumbananer
Ever tried tanking several mobs as fury with shield and a 2her, without a single point in prot against "dps metorz plzzz! link epic achiii!"- type of players? Whirlwind in def stance would make that scenario much easier :D
Post by
121564
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Lorkin
Whirlwind in defense stance is a horrible idea. It might be worth using if they factor in the shield as a weapon, perhaps a shield slam effect with whirlwind if you have a shield equipped. That will never happen though.
I would rather have cleave increase the number of targets. Lets compare our
Cleave
with a bear's
Swipe
.
By default, cleave hits 2 targets. Glyphed you get an extra target so it bumps it up to 3.
Swipe hits all mobs in range anywhere in the 360 degree range around you. Sure it does less damage, but it's got unlimited targets.
I've seen my brother tank on his bear, he uses 3 abilities and never loses aggro. It doesn't even matter about placement, swipe just is an awsome aoe tanking ability. Why do we have such limitations to our cleave?
Even NPCs have a better cleave than us. Take some of the dragon bosses using
Cleave
like Onyxia, Vael, Sapphiron, Nefarian, etc.
Some elite mobs have this version of
Cleave
. Here's some more cleave examples:
Black Cleave
|
Arcane Cleave
|
Cleave
|
Holy Cleave
|
Shadow Cleave
|
Soul Cleave
|
Strong Cleave
|
Sundering Cleave
|
Tentacle Cleave
| etc
Paladins recently got a cleave like change to
Seal of Command
. If you read the description, it says up to 2 additional targets (default 3).
After all this, Warriors are still stuck with
Cleave
. WTB changes to cleave.
Post by
Zakkhar
I've seen my brother tank on his bear, he uses 3 abilities and never loses aggro. It doesn't even matter about placement, swipe just is an awsome aoe tanking ability. Why do we have such limitations to our cleave?
One obvious point from this: Bear tanking is freaking boooring.
Post by
152897
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
codyb
how about makeing devastate hit 2 targets and glyph for 3. i think it would be awsome lol
Post by
Sakkura
how about makeing devastate hit 2 targets and glyph for 3. i think it would be awsome lol
Would make tanking next to a sheep a pain though. If anyone even uses polymorph anymore, that is...
Post by
codyb
how about makeing devastate hit 2 targets and glyph for 3. i think it would be awsome lol
Would make tanking next to a sheep a pain though. If anyone even uses polymorph anymore, that is...
yeah but no one sheeps anymore i can tank mobs easily the way the warrior is now but would make it better AoE threat imo
Post by
309875
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Post by
245261
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
309875
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Zakkhar
Whirlwind in Defensive stance is something I'd certainly love.
I think the main problem with Warrior AOE is cooldowns. Shockwave has a 20 second cooldown, and often times isn't even ready to use again by the time the next pull comes in a heroic.
You're the tank, you control the pace of the pulls.
You wish. If you keep stopping to wait for major cooldown i assure you that dps will start pulling these days.
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