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What advantage do DK tanks have over others?
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Post by
jepherz
I'm starting to think that DK tanks can never be as good as an equally geared(item level wise) pally tank. I don't know much about warrior tanks or druids. It just seems DK can never catch up to pallies on mitigation(dodge, parry, block). I just seems like there are advantages other classes have over DKs which makes them superior tanks. As frost I have IBF and UBA, 1 min and 2 min CDs, pallies have the 30% block thing with a really short CD. What advantages do DKs have that other tanks dont?
Post by
Meliant
I don't know what other tanks are seeing, and I would love to see more input, but assuming equal gear item levels versus a pally tank in my guild I'd say I'm better off overall than he is. He generates more initial threat faster than I do but I am putting out more overall base mitigation than he is (not counting cds). My combined base dodge/parry percents are higher than his, then adding in bone shield since I'm unholy geared for mitigation, I end up taking less over all damage then him.
I believe a lot of this does matter on specific fights though. In my guild we trade off bosses, depending on the boss mechanics. A pally tank doesn't really have interrupts, where we have a mind freeze every 10 seconds.
Post by
anywherenotes
I think OP is right.
Jepherz, can you post on official blizzard forums, and suggest they buff DK tanks?
Post by
334662
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146010
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363250
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Post by
Ashigore
This part bothers me the most, we had more avoidance then any tank currently in game from talents. With the nerf to Blade Barrier we still have an impressive amount, the only way Prot Pally beats us currently in Mitigation is Block. Please note we're not mitigation based. We're like Feral Druids and excel in Avoidance tanking... Specifically Avoidance or Anti-Caster, which is actually a big difference in certain raid fights in Ulduar. Most notably Hodir.. DK tank will pretty much pwn any other if they play it smart with AMS on Frozen Blows (=full rp and 75% damage reduction while it's up, with 4set t8/8.5 it's 85% damage reduction)
All tanking classes use avoidance and mitigation in suprising similar quantities (can you say game balance?). Druids and DKs have more armor for more passive mitigation to make up for the lack of active mitigation (block).
As for hodir, AMS doesnt last long enough to protect a tank vs frozen blows and the t8 4 set bonus doesnt add 10% magical damage reduction, it adds
10% pysical damage reduction
. Imo, the best tank for this boss is a druid in (some) frost resistance gear. High health, crit immunity, etc etc...
Id say the only boss in ulduar where a DK has a real benefit vs other tanks (asside from hard modes) is Vezax. IBF negating the mini enrage so you dont have to kite, makes the fight a lot easier.
However, there are other bosses where one of the other tanking classes makes it alot easier. Thorim for example, we sometimes use a druid in PvP gear to negate the unbalancing strike.
Post by
svl007
we have more cd's.
and we don't need to have advantages over other tanks, we just need to be equal. bring the player not the class. if anything paladins and warriors are pulling the short stick for the moment seeying most guilds on my server use their druid and dk tanks a lot more then their warrior and paladin tanks in ulduar especially on hard modes.
blizz did a damn good job balancing tank classes only thing really left is block mechanic since that just isn't cutting it (and they indicated they are working on it). now it's just up to the players to show they are better then the other. and i'm affraid if you can't find the advantages in your own class you don't belong to the better ones.
as for paladin threat they have very simular threat to us but they front load a lot better so if you both start at the same moment you won't be able to catch up. if you get a few seconds head start you shouldn't have any problem staying ahead unless ofc you geared purely for EH and he geared for threat.
Post by
Freadnaught
a dk that manages cooldowns properly can survive burst much better (such as in general vezax's fight, for example. They don't have to kite him.)
I have to agree. I just tanked the General last night for my guilds first downing. Went much better with my DK tanking then our warrior tank. With only being in Ulduar for 2 weeks and not haveing any 25Naxx gear it went well (useing 2/5 t7 and 2/5 t8). Just useing IBF and eather Unbreakable Armor or a trinket every surge made it feel like i was takeing the same or even less damage then normal. Also with no kiteing = more DPS on the target.
Post by
334662
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Post by
cheesechamp
Don't forget AMS for phase 1 of Mimiron. The magic reduction for the plasma blast paired with IF makes his entire blast null and void. granted, the CD's will not be up for 2 blasts in a row, which is why my guild uses a strategy in which I tank the 1st and if necessary, 3rd plasma blast, and our druid tank takes the second one while blowing all of his hp and damage reduction cooldowns. His damage reduction does not compare, but the extra hp makes up for it. But I digress.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that AMS can be used effectively for plasma blasts on Mimiron.
Post by
334662
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Post by
Ashigore
Ashigore -
Please when correcting someone make sure you understand the principals of the fight in question. I never said AMS lasts the entire Frozen Blows as it disappears upon reaching the magical damage cap that's applied to spell. AMS makes that fight easy for DK as it makes a huge % damage reduction on Frozen Blows where most tanks can't and the 10% from 4set t8 comes into affect during Frozen Blows because it's not only magical:
Frozen Blows
Physical is reduced by 70%. So the 10% is a handy addition to that part. This makes Feral Druids weaker of a tank then most others as Armor does not reduce incoming frost damage :(
Lynri, when correcting someone for correcting someone, please don't patronise them. Anti magic shell has a long cooldown and as such will at most absorb 22-25k damage on 1 frozen blow hit depending on your health. Yes thats alot of damage reduction, but its 1 hit out of several you will take during the 20 seconds of frozen blows. If you can be healed through the rest of those 40k + blows you dont need AMS to survive the 1st one either. At best its a bit of extra threat which we nor other classes really NEED in that fight so I dont know how you can say that DKs have an advantage when other classes can tank him perfectly fine.
I mentioned General Vezax because it is the ONLY boss in ulduar that DKs have a REAL advantage in because their cooldowns can COMPLETELY negate his mini enrage ability GREATLY simplifying the fight.
Every class has cooldowns to mitigate damage, the ability to absorb half of 1 frozen blow every 45 seconds hardly makes DKs the must have class for Hodir.
And as for the 10% physical damage reduction, that means the physical element to 1 attack is reduced to 63% instead of 70%, hardly noticable compared to the magical damage to be frank and again, this is on 1 hit every 45 seconds. Im not saying its worthless, it clearly isnt, but as I said before, it hardly gives a notable edge to DKs on this fight. A druid may well have 7% more mitidation from armor than you, meaning he would get this benefit on all the hits, or warriors and paladins may be able to block the physical part of the hit.
Im not saying AMS isnt a nice ability, but for tanking Hodir, it doesnt give much benefit compared to other bosses/classes.
Post by
334662
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Post by
Ashigore
Perhaps we have been talking slightly cross purpose. I took the OP:
I'm starting to think that DK tanks can never be as good as an equally geared(item level wise) pally tank. I don't know much about warrior tanks or druids. It just seems DK can never catch up to pallies on mitigation(dodge, parry, block). I just seems like there are advantages other classes have over DKs which makes them superior tanks. As frost I have IBF and UBA, 1 min and 2 min CDs, pallies have the 30% block thing with a really short CD. What advantages do DKs have that other tanks dont?
to suggest that he considered other tanking classes were superior to the point where DKs were not worth using. I was trying to emphasise that there is at least one boss in ulduar where youd have to be crazy not to use a DK if the possibility to use one existed.
I agree, half a frozen blow is better than nothing. But by that token I would suggest that DKs have an advatage on pretty much all bosses, since we have 1 tank of each class in my guild and I take overall less damage than all the others. There are however still certain bosses and situations where other tanking classes may have benefits over DKs as well. Ultimately in current content, any tanking class
can
tank any of the encounters successfully.
/repsect
Post by
116684
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363250
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Post by
Ashigore
Lynri,
You mean you can actually tank hodir with 0 frost resist? I have not done it before but our usual is always pally tanking with a mixture of frost resist gear. Wont the 40k frozen blow kill you off?
If u use AMS it reduces the damage by 75% >.>
...At least...i think it does
It reduces the magical component of a frozen blow by 75% up to a maximum of 50% of your health for 5 seconds.
This will be 1 hit at most.
If Lynri can tank Hodir without frost rez, and i sounds like he can, you dont need AMS to survive it. However, as he pointed out it will fill your RP bar :)
Post by
334662
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Post by
jepherz
OP again...
Ok, I'm new to raiding and tanking in raids along side other tanks. The pally that just joined the guild is slightly better geared than me in mostly naxx25 gear. He has only 29.5k HP though and over 30 block unbuffed, I have 33.5k unbuffed as blood spec. On vent, he told us about how he enjoys tanking over dpsing and likes a challenge from dps trying to steal aggro from him. And then he's always low on mana and keeps asking for overheals to get his mana back so I'm guessing he's just trying to generate as much threat as possible all the time.
My rotation is kinda like IT>PS>HS>HS>DS>then spam HS more often than DS, rune strike when possible(I don't have it macroed, messes with my bar), and coil if all runes on CD. I don't think my rotation is that bad =/
I have no trouble keeping threat from dps, but on fights like the cat lady in uldaur. I tank 1 cat and the lady, while he OTs the other cat a little away, then we down the second cat, and then everyone gets on the boss. It only takes him a few seconds after that to get aggro away from me. I do around 3-3.5k TPS according to omen, he does around 5-5.5k TPS.
I dunno pally abilities, but he tosses his shield first, (maybe more later, thats the first thing he does while running to the mobs/bosses) then a few seconds later I hear a pretty load DING! and then some time later again. Sometimes I can take aggro back for like a second, but ultimately it just goes back to him. I'm not sure if he's taunting bosses from me, but he says he isn't, but its impossible for me to MT over him just cuz he takes away away so quickly.
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