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Post by
JemiS
Weight scales are made for someone who is in 'average' gear, ie they do not have any major gaps (defense weak, hp weak, etc).
The defense scales in question use the idea of effective HP, and put that trinket very high.
The truth is, if you're Def capped the HoL trinket doesn't offer all that much avoidance- meaning the badge trinket and this one should be paired for best effective HP.
The bottom line is loot rules should be discussed before the group starts. If everyone agrees, it's ok.
If you are a tank, be very clear, and do not look for DPS. Be geared and specced for it (I'm assuming you are) and capable of tanking the instance.
If you are not yet capable of tanking the instance, either run something lower or Dual Spec DPS and run as DPS- and kindly request to be allowed to roll on tanking gear.
I was a Ret Pally who made the switch to Prot- if I'm running an instance as Ret, it is likely to get a specific DPS item from there. And I do not appreciate losing that item to a tank trying to beef up an 'offset'. Same thing when I run as Prot. If I'm running as DPS, I don't roll need against the tank, and if I'm running as the Tank I dont roll need against the DPS- it's just not polite.
Post by
188262
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
xaratherus
I promise you people will have more fun if they're considerate of one another and not get all hung up on the "Phat Lewtz" from the instance.
I don't really feel someone is being considerate when they win gear that I could immediately use for my current spec because they're in the process of building an off-spec. Just as I won't roll on DPS gear unless I'm running as DPS -
unless I ask the group first if it's okay
- I consider it courteous for them to refrain from rolling on gear that I actually will immediately use.
Basically, by saying that it's okay for classes that can tank to roll against the person who is actually tanking
without asking permission
first, you're saying that it's also okay for the tank to roll on any piece of gear that he could use for his off-spec. That's really what it boils down to in my eyes. If it's considerate to let a Fury Warrior roll need on a tank drop that I would use immediately, then it's perfectly okay for me to roll need on that DPS weapon upgrade against him since I might use it in my off spec at some point.
Post by
188262
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
xaratherus
Do the research, listen in lfg chat, and seek the opportunities where they lay to get what you need. If people come along and need the same gear as well, off-spec in your dual-spec or no, let em roll, let fate decide.
I'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. I don't consider it rude that a tank or healer or DPS to be given priority on gear for that role over someone who wants the gear for off spec (unless the group agrees otherwise beforehand); I apply those rules to regular instances, heroic instances, and raids and have yet to really see a compelling reason to do otherwise.
Post by
188262
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
xaratherus
When finding a random PuG for normal and heroic instances people will probably be turned off by that mentality, in fact I would expect them to.
I do not pug frequently*, but this is the standard rule that I've always seen used in pugs I've been in (whether I started the pug or not), and have very rarely had any issue with it.
That is why I seem surprised at your response, I suppose - because it's been the norm in the pugs that I've run. While it's a small sampling, it appears that the majority of responses in this thread also attend to the "current role gets priority" idea, and I find it hard to believe that would be true if there were that many people bothered by it.
But when people in PuGs enter into a 5-man and pull their load, they should be able to expect a shot at some of the rewards. If people intend to deny them that opportunity, it's crucial to communicate that in advance so no one gets angry.
That's the thing - I'm not denying them a shot at the rewards; in fact, I'm giving them a
greater
opportunity at rewards that will benefit the role they are playing in the group, because if I'm not also playing that role
I don't roll against them on gear for that role
. If I'm tanking, I don't roll on DPS or healing gear; if I'm healing, I don't roll on tank/DPS drops; if I'm DPSing, I don't roll on tank/healing stuff.
"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need." - Karl Marx. The tank's ability is to tank; his need is gear allowing him to tank. A DPS's ability is to pewpew; his need is gear allowing him to smash faces in better.
*For a given value of frequently. I'd say 20% of the runs I have done over the past 3 years have been pugs - which still probably equates to 50+ runs. I prefer to run with guild-mates.
Post by
JemiS
So in other words, as a Paladin, I could roll on almost everything: DPS, Tanking and Healing gear... After all, it all might be upgrades for me?
I think I would be booted from the group pretty fast.
Every PuG I've run has had the main spec, need, offspec, greed loot rules. If the tank needs a tanking item, he needs it. If he doesn't, anyone else can greed it for an offspec.
Post by
150363
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Lorkin
Every PuG I've run has had the main spec, need, offspec, greed loot rules. If the tank needs a tanking item, he needs it. If he doesn't, anyone else can greed it for an offspec.
^^ I generally run pugs a lot and find this to be true. It also applies for class type and gear type (i.e. a paladin rolling on cloth should pass to the cloth casters first). I've had noobs roll need for their offspec, even though it was really the only reason I ran the instance to begin with. Main spec is what you were doing at that boss, people should realize that.
Anything else and the classes that can fill all three roles should technically be able to roll on almost all gear that drops. That's just not fair.
Post by
Spectrezh
For my characters, unless our guild is using DKP for Ulduar 25 or any of the big raids, our rules for raids, instances, etc are Main spec first. we always ask permission before rolling on an item. generally whoever needs the item(s) will announce that he/she needs it and other people won't roll. if he/she doesn't need then it goes to the person next who might need it for off-spec. doesn't matter if it's PuG or guild runs, item always goes to Main spec first. the issue with one of my guilds was that even though someone ran through using Off-spec, they claimed it was their Main spec cause they used it throughout the instance. we had to revise our rules cause of that.
so in a nutshell, with the runs ive been in, main spec first
Lol ya JemiS, id imagine anyone would get kicked out pretty quick for doing that.
Sry, let me clear up what I mean by Main Spec. Main spec is the spec you went in there as and stayed as throughout the instance. If you are double spec-ing (aka dual talent specs), Main spec is your First spec not your 2nd. the example I used above, the person had Dual Talents and was using his 2nd, not his primary. so when I mean Main spec i meant primary. least that's how we classify it. :-)
Post by
188262
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
150363
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
JemiS
I almost always say yes if someone asks to roll for their offspec.
It's when people don't ask before they need that gets me...
Post by
188262
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Eleazer
Rufusdoggy,
I agree with you. The difficulty is that the WoW community has brought the raid mentality into grouping. And now raids are getting even worse with the PuG reserved gear going on. I even told a buddy of mine who I regularly pug into raids he and his guild starts that I wouldn't be running with them anymore, because I feel that reserving gear even if it's not something I need for pugs is an inherently selfish tactic and was started by someone who got upset because they didn't get what they wanted. It's also the reason you have so many people quit a raid after one or two wipes.
The whole idea that is based on the thought "if the community at large feels it's okay it must be okay" should not be our desire. If you read some of the responses it amazes me how angry and poorly written some of the opposing arguments have become. I dislike the idea of calling someone a noob because he approached the situation like an adult. He rationally explained his need and they got upset with him so he left. He was correct in his approach and in his reaction.
Main spec is simply that your main spec. My main spec is tank but I will gladly dps a raid or dungeon. I generally have no problem with tanks rolling on dps gear ahead of me nor do I have any problem rolling on tank gear. Do I usually state that I will be to the tank? Absolutely! Because it is the right thing to do? No, because most of the time you are rolling against young kids who don't realize that the gear will drop again sometime. This can cause unending amounts of grief as the young player will then follow you around calling you names and whining about how he never gets any gear, and being a general nuisance (This is mainly on the Alliance side)
The main reason you change gears for raids is because of the complexity of putting together a raid, and the amount of people going for the same objective. This facilitates a need for MS>OS. However even in my guild I raid as DPS in high level raids but roll on all tanking gear. Why? Because my goal is to be a tank, I just do not have the same level of tanking gear as the main guild tanks. Does this bother them, at times yes. But they all realize my desire and have since helped me to get gear I need, by running heroics and allowing me to tank through Naxx10 and 25, OS 10 and 25, EoE 10/25, while slightly undergeared, plust they love being able to run heroics and Naxx and being able to roll on DPS gear for their OS because I won't roll on it.
If you take the time to be considerate in a group, and realize that they may be a running heroics as a dps but trying to gear to heal or tank raids, than you would be able to hold back some of your bile and anger over losing out on a small piece of loot. Some of my now pug raiding buddies were heroic runners who added me to their friends list because of this attitude. They were dps and rolled on healing or tank gear.
Granted this whole idea would require a total reworking of our complete gaming makeup and require us to download the patch of understanding and patience (granted your lag time may increase initially), but is that too high a price to pay for a happy gaming experience?
Post by
Rubendesmet619
I geared up MANY times trough 5-mens and francly im sick of it. I wanne get al my loot within a week and start raiding. If I tank then I take every tankitem I want, in TBC I could stil trust most people but because of the attitude like sombody above I started using masterloot just to avoid getting gosammer ripped from me f.ex.
Specpriority ain't rocketsience, if an item has mp/5 as a caster DPS you leave it to the healer first, if it has defence DPS keeps there hands of it.
5-mens I do 100% for loot(and emblems wich result in more loot).
It's raiding with a guild I do for fun.
Pfff, PuG'ing for 2years+ made me a bit bitter it seems.
Post by
188262
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
xaratherus
The whole idea that is based on the thought "if the community at large feels it's okay it must be okay" should not be our desire. If you read some of the responses it amazes me how angry and poorly written some of the opposing arguments have become.
Your post is very well-written. However, just as some of the responses have become heated, there is a subtle egotism to your post; because the opinion of the "community at large" appears to differ from your own, it is the community's opinion that is wrong. I agree that the best thing to do is define the loot rules before you begin, so that anyone can leave to find another group if needs be; I don't see that as selfish, only a difference of opinion, and fair to everyone involved.
I dislike the idea of calling someone a noob because he approached the situation like an adult. He rationally explained his need and they got upset with him so he left. He was correct in his approach and in his reaction.
I don't disagree that the original poster handled it correctly. I don't consider it invalid to want to roll on tanking gear when you are DPSing. I'm saying that you need to agree upon that before starting the run. They did not agree - so he left. While I wasn't there, I don't see that the other side acted irrationally - they acted within their own rationality based on what they felt was fair.
The problem here is that you consider this mindset "selfish", while others don't. That's perfectly fine. However, the only argument that has really been offered to the contrary is, "It's selfish because they can run it again to try and get it." That's based on a few assumptions that may or may not be true:
The person has the time resources to run the instance on a regular basis.
The random number generator governing gear drops allows the item to drop again within a time frame that the player finds acceptable.
Again, I point back to my guild mate who wanted Essence of Gossamer for his tanking set. In your model, it would be perfectly acceptable for him to tank heroic Azjol-Nerub 50 times, have the trinket drop 50 times, and lose 50 times because his RNG happened to come up lower than others who were not tanking the instance. Granted, that was not the case - instead, he had to run it 40+ times before he got it to drop a second time after it was won by someone else.
Personally, what bothers me is how tragic it is that any one player could hold any single piece of gear as "that important" that they would intentionally deny others who could find it equally (if not more) useful the opportunity in pursuing their own goals in the game.
They are not denying them that. If it's obvious from the beginning that the rules of the group will not allow them to get the gear they desire, then they are free to go find a group wherein they can get that gear.
I agree that changes the rules partway through a run is bad; I disagree that defining the rules at the beginning, so that anyone who is "denied" gear they might want can find a group where they are not "denied" is somehow wrong.
Play how you like, but if others don't like to play your way and choose not to play by your "rules", it's hardly a reason to get upset with them.
Likewise, if others choose to play by rules that differ from your own, it's hardly a reason to consider them selfish.
Post by
188262
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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