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Warrior Health
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Post by
Shiverlynn
Very true, lol. Its a shame that healers/dps dont have a stat like HP that can instantly be critiqued without having to inspect their gear or armory them.
Well they do in a way, you can look at their mana, if you see a healer with 12k mana in a heroic,
usually
something's wrong. For DPS you can look at their health too, usually the better the gear, the more stamina on it even if it's for DPS, and therefore the bigger the health pool.
As for how much health you shoudl have for heroics, I'd say get yourself defense capped, when it's done, you'll have enough health too since it comes with gear.
Post by
SeaOfHoles
You do when your healer has 900 SP and your DPS are averaging 1000 DPS.
That sounds like a challenge, rather than a boring snore fest like most players want.
Post by
347420
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Post by
Lorkin
It really depends on the group. When they deny you a group when you have 22k health, there maybe a reason. I remember running H UK with my old guild when I was dps. All of our dps was above 2k, some with 3k+ and our healer was pretty stellar. Problem was we were lacking a tank atm so we picked up a paladin with around 21k health unbuffed. Normally this wouldn't be an issue but his threat was severely lacking. All the dps were able to pull aggro off him, and the healer's job was harder having to heal everyone instead of just the tank.
It wasn't the fault of the tank, he has sufficient gear for H UK. It was just that the group was overgeared for the place and having a rookie tank with insane dps doesn't work. I think it's a better idea for starting tanks to group with starter dps in starter heroics. That way they can take their time through the instance, and everyone will be at the same pace.
That being said, I understand there should be a starting point for everyone. I started tanking Heroics with my RL friend under 535 Def skill and 19.5k health. I was able to quickly gear up and improve my stats so that people werent so afraid to let me tank. Once you are sitting around the 25k health mark I think you should be good to go. Another problem is that there are so many tanks now above the 28k health mark that it's hard to pick a starter tank. When folks check the LFG channel and they see 2 dps available, one with 1.4k dps and the other with 2.5k dps, which do you think they will pick. It's the same with Tanks.
Post by
347420
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Post by
Lorkin
As you gear up, you move away from looking for more health and avoidance or mitigation stats to more threat generation. That's the hardest facet of tanking that I try to explain to the folks I have grouped with. When you first start with people of similar gear to you, your main goal is to stay alive. You take the hits, while your group does their weak dps. Threat isn't an issue at all or you are just learning how to AoE Tank.
As you get more tanking gear, you are replacing the blacksmith crafted stuff for gear with more hit, block value, expertise, str, etc. This boosts your threat as a tank, and it is noticeable comparing a new tank to a veteran tank. In the meantime, your dps friends are gearing up as well as getting better and better gear. Their dps will start to catchup to your threat generated and at some point will start to overtake you.
I use to think that it's the dps's job to watch their threat. That maybe true on bosses or raid, but on trash I think its the Tank's job to keep aggro. You can't expect a dps'er who can crank out 4k+ dps to just sit around and lower their damage because the tank's threat is horrible. You have to group those people with tanks that can hold aggro over all the mobs.
In that example I talked about, we replaced the tank with a guild tank that was geared for the group. He didn't have any issues holding aggro and never lost aggro to me while I was cycling through the targeted mobs. I'm not saying the other tank was fail, but he was probably a newer tank and not use to tanking for folks doing so much damage. If he had grouped with people similarly geared to him then he wouldn't have had any issues.
Basically what I am saying is the group tend to match the roles of the group with the gear level of that group. You and 3 Naxx 25 geared friends want to run a quick heroic. Do you look for a tank that has at least some T7 gear or do you go with one that has mainly Blacksmithing Tanking pieces? The better geared the players the faster the run.
Post by
347420
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Post by
SeaOfHoles
I use to think that it's the dps's job to watch their threat. That maybe true on bosses or raid, but on trash I think its the Tank's job to keep aggro. You can't expect a dps'er who can crank out 4k+ dps to just sit around and lower their damage because the tank's threat is horrible. You have to group those people with tanks that can hold aggro over all the mobs..
Baloney. DPS is one of the easiest aspects of this game to control. Why does everyone make it sound so hard. I swear DPS have this mentality that if they aren't throttled up to 104%, they aren't doing their job. The trick is getting DPS as high as possible without overdoing it.
Not controlling DPS is as bad as saying that a Healer shouldn't control overheals.
Post by
Lorkin
We're talking about Trash here. On boss fights, if dps isn't watching their threat then its really a bad thing. But for Trash, in my opinion, they should be able to go nuts. There's nothing worst than dps slacking on trash, when they clearly could be doing better. Killing trash faster means getting to the bosses faster, etc.
From what I've seen, there has been a paradigm shift in what is expected of tanks for trash tanking, below Ulduar. Won't bring Ulduar into this because trash there actually takes coordination. But everything Naxx and below, it's basically run in and AoE everything, kill them as fast as possible. The tanks that are able to hold aggro are the norm, and tanks that can't do that are considered subpar now.
I'm not sure what characters you are rolling Wuushwuush and SeaOfHoles, but it doesn't sound like you've either tanked 25 Naxx. If you have both been in Naxx or the like lately, you would see the difference and what is expected of a tank now. Anything short and they consider you a horrible tank. We have the tools to do it, just don't be lazy about putting in the effort.
Post by
Sakkura
Lorkin, tanks generate relatively more threat on bosses than on trash. So DPSers should be more mindful of threat on trash than on bosses. Even more so because trash doesn't usually have enrage timers, while quite a few raid bosses do.
Post by
Lorkin
Right Sakkura, but how many dps'ers do you know are mindful on trash? The ones that I've run with, or on my server generally just go nuts. I mean they AoE from the start if they can AoE, or they go down the mark list if they are single target dps. Having dps hold back on trash is a waste of time in my opinion. Especially with Paladin and DK tanks running around with superior AoE threat, they can go buck from the start.
When I run a heroic with a bunch of good dps, I tell them they can unleash from the start. I haven't had issues with high dps classes on trash. They often tell me, whoa this is much better than other runs where they are afraid to dps from the start or afraid to pull aggro. If you are tanking trash correctly, dps should be able to unleash from the start of the fight. Anything less is slowing the group down.
Post by
348516
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