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Varian Thread
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Post by
hymer
And how does he intend to without killing a large part of their races? What's to stop them from regrouping just like they did under Thrall? It's like someone saying they're going to disband the United States. There's not much you can do to disband it without wiping it out.
Historically, this has been done time and again. You fight a war with a confederation of states and win (you probably occupy some of their land and have scattered, killed, and captured their armed forces). Then there's a peace treaty. You specify your own right to have troops in strategic areas. They must all agree to cease their cooperation, and to cease bearing arms against you. And they must submit to having your observers in their cities. In return, they get most of the land you now occupy back.
This sort of thing can often bring about peace for a while. Going against the peace treaty would be too dangerous, since you hold the strategic areas, have the superior forces (due to having won the war), and it will take time to realign the bits of the confederacy, since they haven't been working as closely as they used to. The parts of the confederacy that stand to lose the most from a war may very well decline to fight alltogether.
The word 'disband' is critical. Why would the writers have Varian use such a word, when he's usually all about fighting and conquering?
Post by
Skreeran
Historically, this has been done time and again. You fight a war with a confederation of states and win (you probably occupy some of their land and have scattered, killed, and captured their armed forces). Then there's a peace treaty. You specify your own right to have troops in strategic areas. They must all agree to cease their cooperation, and to cease bearing arms against you. And they must submit to having your observers in their cities. In return, they get most of the land you now occupy back.You really think the Horde would accept this?
Alright, maybe the Forsaken (although they
would
be wiped out) and Blood Elves, but not the orcs. And probably not the Trolls and Tauren. They'd die before surrendering.
Edit: And again, overall, he's shown the exact same attitude as a
certain other genocidal general
out there.
Post by
hymer
You really think the Horde would accept this?
Alright, maybe the Forsaken (although they
would
be wiped out) and Blood Elves, but not the orcs. And probably not the Trolls and Tauren. They'd die before surrendering.
When faced with the hard facts, they may be forced to accept it. They've been in internment camps before, after all.
But it doesn't matter that much. Varian is being 'civilized' here. He's saying peace hasn't worked under the terms we have now, and that the Alliance must make peace on the Alliance's terms (which is the only sort of peace that has worked historically in Warcraft). If parts of the Horde decide to die rather than give in, then this is merely 'proof' that they don't have the broad view necesarry to a lasting, orderly peace with the Alliance.
I'm not advocating war in a broad sense. But to a warrior, and a nation of warriors, this should seem quite plausible. Reverse the roles, as people have been fond of saying. After a long war, Thrall offers peace to the Alliance, if they will cease their cooperation against the Horde, and he will personally guarantee the continued survival of their peoples. Say Varian refuses, along with the Bronzebeards, but the rest decide to bide their time. Wouldn't Varian and Magni be seen as responsible for the downfall of their own peoples? They were given a way out, a peace without honour, and didn't take it.
Post by
Rankkor
They've been in interment camps before, after all.
exactly, they know what future awaits them should they surrender, and mark my words no orc on this world wishes to repeat their past.
"been there. done that" after knowing the hell (because that's what the internament camps were, hell) that awaits them in surrendering, every orc would choose to die with honor and dignity than rather than allow themselvs to become slaves once more.
for 50 years they have been slaves, to both demons and later humans, this time they will not submit, this time they will not sell their dignity.
and also, remember the key line that varian said at the undercity
"what our world would be without YOU, and your treacherous horde"
if they were on internament camps, they would still exist, he said "a world WITHOUT you" this means, no longer existing, not even in internament camps.
on that line he has said that specifically wants thrall dead, when thrall has never wished varian or any other alliance leader dead, quite the contrary, thrall tried to save magni's daughter by sending horde players to atempt to save her on blackrock depts.
last but not least, let's try and focus pls:
on the second war, when the alliance had to imprison only orcs, they were going bankrupt they had only orcs in cages, and they barely could sustain the internament camps, soldiers began to recieve less payment for their work, wich in turn they took it out on the "culprits" the caged orcs.
several nations like quel'danas and gilneas retreated from the alliance because of the extensive cost it took to imprison a few orc clans.
now can you posibly imagine if they try to imprison the vast amount of orcs (they have no doubt increased in numbers in the past 10 years of freedom) and add to that tauren+trolls+blood elves+forsaken+goblins?
the alliance does't have a limitless pit of gold to do such an imposible thing, there is no way in hell.
they coun't afford to imprison a few orc clans when the alliance had 7 human nations+an elven nation+the dwarf nation+the gnome nation.
that's 10 countrys, that codun't afford the internament camps.
what makes you think they can doit with 5?
varian intends to disband the horde, and to do that he's gonna have to kill them all, because the alliance doesn't have the resources to imprision them all.
heck they tried it and they could barely imprison the orcs, and their economy was going to the crap-hole because of it, now let them try that trick again but with 6 races instead of 1.
his disbandment is just a fancy word for HOLOCAUST.
those who wish to see otherwise are too inloved wiht their new king to acept it.
Reverse the roles, as people have been fond of saying. After a long war, Thrall offers peace to the Alliance, if they will cease their cooperation against the Horde, and he will personally guarantee the continued survival of their peoples. Say Varian refuses, along with the Bronzebeards, but the rest decide to bide their time. Wouldn't Varian and Magni be seen as responsible for the downfall of their own peoples? They were given a way out, a peace without honour, and didn't take it.
that's because the terms offered by thrall are what? simply asked to ceace their cooperation agaisnt the horde.
the alliance equivalent? live in a 6-inch cage for the rest of your life.
wich one is worst?
then this is merely 'proof' that they don't have the broad view necesarry to a lasting, orderly peace with the Alliance.
if refusing to accept such a ridiculus term to peace makes us laking of broad view, why don't revert the roles? if the alliance wants peace so much why don't they cage themselves and let us run the internament camps?
is not pretty to live like that, that's why. -.-
varian is being highly delusional, I'm actually thinking he's going insane for these reasons,
A: he somehow thinks his war against the horde will be a clean sweep with zero casualtys on his side (wich is ridiculus)
B: he seems to think that the horde would accept to live in cages for the rest of their lives if they are packed in to a corner (wich is even more ridiculus)
C: he seems to think that the alliance has the money, resources and manpower to build keep defend and maintain internament camps for 6 races (wich is border-line INSANE)
this guy is the saddest excuse for a king i've seen in a long time, because he's not realistic enough, he seems to live in dreamland where his alliance are gods who can make the imposible look easy.
Post by
Skreeran
Not to mention the fact that orcs, being a proud race, would never give up as long as they were subjugated. They'd never stop fighting to get their lands back, and they wouldn't accept the humans having dominion over them. I think Varian knows this, and his solution is genocide. , as far as he's concerned, orcs don't belong on Azeroth, and he wants to be the one to remove them.
Although I have to say, I do like Hymer's solution a lot more than the more prevalent ideas that everyone has of Varian. Most Ally supporters will try and justify his reasons for genocide, which, as far as I'm concerned, can't be done. I'd certainly prefer to believe that Varian would let the orcs continue to live on their lands, albeit with constant guard and harsh rules, than just killing them all.
I just don't think that's actually what he wants. It seems to me that he wants to punish the Horde, not just eliminate the threat. Not to mention the costs, of course. Terenas may have believed in the camps, but they had a great deal of opposition because of the taxes. The extra money it would cost to keep the Horde entirely under Alliance control would be astronomical. Although, now that I think about it, they could just do what the romans did and tax the orcs.
Post by
Rankkor
they could just do what the romans did and tax the orcs
and how would the orcs pay if they live in cages? with mushrooms?
the romans at least let the greeks live on their own city, wereas the alliance took all the orcs before and placed them all in a cage, force to do slave work with zero payment.
if they tax the orcs then I just don't see how could they pay up
is not like they were paid gold for their cage-penthouse
seems to me that he wants to punish the Horde, not just eliminate the threat.
wanna know what I think is the real deal?
varian=barthilas
those who read "of blood and honor" will know what I'm talking about.
I may be wrong about this (if I am then I take it back) but varian was too youung to fight on the first war, and the second wars.
he saw his land, and his father, and his people die, and he could do NOTHING, he was just a kid, he was safe at lordaeron while the lands on the south were going to hell.
now that he became an adult, the war was over, his chance to vent his rage on the orcs, gone, so he wants every excuse posible to spark a war with them.
is just like barthilas, who just like varian, lost his parents to the orcs, got embittered, wanted his chance for revenge, and didn't get it because the war was over.
Post by
Skreeran
they could just do what the romans did and tax the orcs
and how would the orcs pay if they live in cages? with mushrooms?
the romans at least let the greeks live on their own city, wereas the alliance took all the orcs before and placed them all in a cage, force to do slave work with zero payment.
if they tax the orcs then I just don't see how could they pay up
is not like they were paid gold for their cage-penthouseWell, Hymer wasn't suggesting they live in cages:
Then there's a peace treaty. You specify your own right to have troops in strategic areas. They must all agree to cease their cooperation, and to cease bearing arms against you. And they must submit to having your observers in their cities. In return, they get most of the land you now occupy back.It'd be like the Israelites in Jesus' time. The romans appointed the king, the romans demanded the taxes, the romans made many of the laws, the romans kept troops garrisoned there, etc.
Post by
46491
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
hymer
To rankorr:
Enough about internment camps. They aren't the issue, as Skreeran and Thanodius pointed out. I brought them up to show that orcs have before been subjected to a peace they didn't want. You may be right that orcs would die rather than go into internment camps, but that is quite beside the point.
If some Horde leaders intend to have their people fight to the death rather than cease cooperation with other Horde factions, then they let their pride cloud their judgment, and set their personal feelings above what's good for their people. I think I've heard something about that about someone else recently...
remember the key line that varian said at the undercity
"what our world would be without YOU, and your treacherous horde"
if they were on internament camps, they would still exist, he said "a world WITHOUT you" this means, no longer existing, not even in internament camps.
on that line he has said that specifically wants thrall dead, when thrall has never wished varian or any other alliance leader dead, quite the contrary, thrall tried to save magni's daughter by sending horde players to atempt to save her on blackrock depts.
You choose the worst possible interpretation. If that is fair, let Varian be when
he
does it. I agree that Varian expressed a wish to kill Thrall. I don't agree that he is saying that he is going to exterminate the Horde. Disbanding it means breaking it back up into its original factions, and the Orcs into their clans. With that, the Horde would be 'gone'.
This is not the only way to interpret this, but it is a completely acceptable way to do it. If you give Varian the benefit of the doubt (not the Orcs, you, who has nothing to lose by this experiment), then you don't have basis for saying Varian will, if he can, institute a holocaust against the Horde factions.
Whatever the interpretation, remember that Varian has before threatened to do horrible things, and yet held himself back.
To Skreeran:
Thank you. :)
We’ll probably never know what Varian would do in the end. One thing that makes me think he would not exterminate the Horde is his treatment of children. He doesn’t kill orclings. I don’t think he slaughters peons, either.
Not to mention the fact that orcs, being a proud race, would never give up as long as they were subjugated. They'd never stop fighting to get their lands back, and they wouldn't accept the humans having dominion over them.
This is why occupation by foreign power pretty much just doesn't work in the long run. Humans are like that too.
I think Varian knows this, and his solution is genocide. , as far as he's concerned, orcs don't belong on Azeroth, and he wants to be the one to remove them.
Could be. Let me here again mention the orclings, and that bit about the benefit of the doubt. And applaud you for the tactful lack of foaming at the mouth. :) You, sir, are a pleasure to converse with.
Post by
Adamsm
Guys, internment and outright slaughter are not the only options here. The Dark Portal has been open for quite some time now and Nagrand seems to be quite spacious. They might have to "relocate" some ogres, but otherwise most of the big baddies in Outland have been taken care of. So the Orcs go back whence they came, the Darkspear get Durotar and Orgrimmar, the Tauren already have their own lands (as do the Blood Elves) and the Forsaken....well, that remains to be seen.
I agree with this. Honestly, I could see the Darkspear being happy in Terrokar forest as well, and the Taurens, if they didn't wish to all remain in Mulgore, they could live in Nagrand with the Orc's. The Elves would probably remain in Silvermoon area, but there would probably be "guards at the border's into the Ghostlands. As for the Forsaken..... well they would be genocided, let's admit that.
Post by
Patty
Isn't Outland a dying world though?
Post by
Adamsm
Parts of it are recovering.
Post by
Skreeran
To Skreeran:
Thank you. :)
We’ll probably never know what Varian would do in the end. One thing that makes me think he would not exterminate the Horde is his treatment of children. He doesn’t kill orclings. I don’t think he slaughters peons, either.Well, we don't actually know that. He threatened to kill Med'an, who is an adolecent. Although the phrase: "I may have not been a child-killer in the past..." (or some close approximation of the phrase) works in his favour here, however. It would seem that he would not kill a normal child, but Med'an, being
Garona's
child, could be an exception.
Nevertheless, I do believe he is capable of possible genocide in the future, should circumstances allow it (which they won't, of course. It is a story.) I find this especially likely given his dehumanization of the orcs, calling them any number of derogatory remark (animals, beasts, savages, etc.). It would not appear that he does not see orcs as people. Look at people from history like Hernán Cortés, who exterminated the "savage" Aztecs, or the way the "primitive negros" were treated.
I'm not saying that Varian is a raving lunatic who can't think of anything but killing orcs (as he is frequently characterized as by Horde supporters that get a wee bit too fervent). I'm just saying that I certainly think him capable of genocide, especially if he continues in this line of thinking.
This is why occupation by foreign power pretty much just doesn't work in the long run. Humans are like that too.Indeed. That's why I don't think it would work very well for the Alliance. By dominating the Horde, they would only foster the same hatred that has caused every Alliance/Horde conflict since the Third War. The Horde wouldn't remain placated forever, and you'd end up seeing an exact repeat of what happened in Lord of the Clans. The Horde would reform, and we're right back at square one. As far as I see it, either the two sides need to come to an understanding through peaceful means, one side has to kill the other, or they'll just be doomed to fight forever.
Could be. Let me here again mention the orclings, and that bit about the benefit of the doubt. And applaud you for the tactful lack of foaming at the mouth. :) You, sir, are a pleasure to converse with.It's hard to give him the benefit of the doubt, personally. He's already tried to kill my warchief, and hates me, (again, speaking from essentially an in-character perspective, I can't help it), and from that perspective, the mere fact that he
might
try to commit an orc holocaust tells me not to trust him very far, if that makes any sense. (Sorry, having a bit of trouble composing this thought).
Basically, I know he wants or at least
wanted
my Warchief dead. He wanted Orgrim dead, as well. It's not hard to see that that desire might extend to the entire race, especially when you consider what he has said and done in the past. As a person, I try to give him the benefit of the doubt (which is why I do try to remain a little more moderate on the issue), but as a member of the Horde, and specifically an orc player, the cost of the benefit of the doubt ending up wrong is too great to give him much.
And thank you for the complement. I do my best to approach the issues rationally and calmly. It is interesting to find an Alliance player that defends Varian's moral character and judgement by claiming he's not as hate filled as he would seem to be, rather than justifying his hatred as many others have done, as well.
Post by
Adamsm
He wanted Orgrim dead, as well.Well, most of the world wanted Doomhammer dead at one point, but yeah Varian's reason, because Doomhammer killed Lothar.... well not justified, but no different then Thrall killing Blackmoore for what he did to Taretha.
Post by
Skreeran
He wanted Orgrim dead, as well.Well, most of the world wanted Doomhammer dead at one point, but yeah Varian's reason, because Doomhammer killed Lothar.... well not justified, but no different then Thrall killing Blackmoore for what he did to Taretha.Well, actually, it's quite different.
Taretha was a civilian and not a threat to Blackmoore. She was also a female, so there's a certain wickedness added to it there. Blackmoore also disrespected her remains and taunted Thrall with her head.
With Orgrim and Lothar it was just one general killing another. While the Horde was most certainly in the wrong throughout the war, I would never, ever, ever,
ever
, compare Orgrim to Blackmoore.
As for my comment, saying he wanted Orgrim dead, I was referring to what he said to Arthas. I don't think it was exclusively that one orc in front of him that he was talking about. When he said "he should be killed, not held prisoner," I think he meant all the orcs, not just their Warchief. I doubt he meant "that orc right there should die, but I don't mind the others being imprisoned."
Post by
Adamsm
With Orgrim and Lothar it was just one general killing another.
As for my comment, saying he wanted Orgrim dead, I was referring to what he said to Arthas. I don't think it was exclusively that one orc in front of him that he was talking about. When he said "he should be killed, not held prisoner," I think he meant all the orcs, not just their Warchief. I doubt he meant "that orc right there should die, but I don't mind the others being imprisoned." Yes to us, but to Varian, it was the greenskin killing the man who had saved his life, made certain he reached the Northern Kingdoms safely, a man he saw as an uncle. Turaylon was filled with rage and rightousness after Lothar fell to Doomhammer, partly because he believed that the Old Horde had no place in the Light, but also because the man he respected and cared about had been cut down in his pride and in front of him.
Remember, both sides Skreeran, I'm not saying Doomhammer was as bad as Blackmoore, just the opposite, but it is similar in that Taretha was Thrall's big sister, the one who taught him that not all humans could be evil. Again, learning that the Orc's had taken not only his father, but his "uncle" had to have been hard on Varian.
Post by
Patty
Turaylon was filled with rage and rightousness after Lothar fell to Doomhammer, partly because he believed that the Old Horde had no place in the Light, but also because the man he respected and cared about had been cut down in his pride and in front of him.
Lothar died in Honourable combat. Even to an Orc, that is worth respecting. He was not murdered in cold blood like Llane was, or Taretha was. He was killed, in one on one combat. There had to be a victor...It just wasn't Lothar.
Post by
Adamsm
I never said it wasn't honourable combat, (i really need to re-read Tides of Darkness), but what I said for Turaylon does work, he picked up and took over for the Alliance forces after the Lion of Azeroth fell. And again, we know this, but to a 15 year old young man, who had seen so much death and destruction in just a few short years, do you really think he is going to be able to tell the difference?
Post by
Patty
And again, we know this, but to a 15 year old young man, who had seen so much death and destruction in just a few short years, do you really think he is going to be able to tell the difference?Well, hadn't he been trained in combat from a young age? Or was that just retconned for the comic rip-off story?
I mean, I feel bad for Varian, I really do. He has had so much ^&*! happen to him, but I hate his genocidal philosophies and how he blames the Horde for
EVERYTHING
that's ever went wrong in his life. A mind-controlled Half-Orc murdered his dad. Note the mind controlled. The shadow council's work was revealed when Orgrim subjugated the Council.
And alright, Doomhammer killed Lothar. His people were forced to flee. Orgrim was forced into fighting, he never chose to burn Stormwind to the ground. That was Blackhand if I recall.
On the other hand: His own people are &*!@ed over and kill his wife in riots. A human brought the Horde into Azeroth in the first place! His own people kidnap him. Humans have been almost as crap to him as the Orcs did, under the Burning Legion's sway. Orcs are no longer war-machines for killing anyone Sargeras dislikes. So I think it's about time Varian realised that Orcs are just as bad as Humans.
EDIT: Going with the *shudder* Comics, Garona/Medivh's lovingly concieved bastard child with every magic power imaginable saved Varian's son, and he is still like "OMG U GREEN, ME SMASH! GNOMES, GET TO DA CHOPPAS AND BURN ORGRIMMAR!"
Post by
Adamsm
Well, hadn't he been trained in combat from a young age?Being trained in combat, and then have a massive horde of demonic looking creatures come and overrun your homeland is two different things. And yes, Blackhand burned the city, and he and the Shadow council sent Garona after Llane, but you've already agreed with the Lothar thing so not saying anything more there.
But I agree with you, Varian needs to get his lust for revenge under control.... of course, he's killed Onyxia who set him up to be kidnapped and was responsible for the set up that led to death of his wife.
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