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Too Much Defense?
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Post by
348516
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Post by
262839
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Post by
Porcell
For a newly 80 warrior getting defense capped comes with a price. I had to gem and enchant for it. So my threat and EH suffered from it. As I gear up by running instances and getting badge gear, my defense rating jumped through the roof. I had to take the enchant and gems off my gear to get it back down to 540.
My question is, is there such a thing as too much defense?
If 540 is the cap, what should I stack next? Is there a simple chart that compare stats such as str, stam, agi, hit, expertise?
Maybe something as simple as str>agi or str=agi or str<agi
540 isn't a cap, it's a minimum. For the most part you want to say close to 540, but it is in no way a bad thing if you have up to 555 or 560 defense.
As far as the other stats you need:
First is the 540 defense. That is key.
Expertise, you are looking for 20 expertise skill (5.0% reduced chance to be dodged or parried, which in addition to the 1.5% you gain from vitality puts you at the expertise "soft cap" removing all of your chance to be dodged.) If you are a human using a mace or sword you need 17 skill to hit the soft cap. Dwarf using a mace or orc using an axe you need 15 skill to hit the soft cap.
The hit cap is 263 hit rating for 8% (230 if you are a draenei or will have one in your group 100% of the time).
After that comes the expertise hard cap, which is something around 16% chance for a boss to parry. You would need 64 expertise skill to knock off boss parry, which really isn't possible to achieve. Just know in your mind that stacking expertise beyond the dodge softcap is still a good thing, but you won't really hit the parry hard cap.
That's really about all you need to know. I would enchant your chest, cloak, and shield with defense (since they are the best options for those slots when compared to the equivalent stamina enchants). Don't gem for strength or agility. Your gems should (almost) always be either straight Stamina, or if you want a good socket bonus go with a combo Expertise/Stamina in red (or Dodge/Stamina), or a Defense/Stamina in yellow.
Post by
Lorkin
As I gear up by running instances and getting badge gear, my defense rating jumped through the roof.
Really? I found the opposite to be true. Generally the Crafted or starter tanking pieces have a ton of Defense rating (and little else) and upgrading from them normally drops your defense rating/skill.
My question is, is there such a thing as too much defense?
If 540 is the cap, what should I stack next?
540 is not the "cap", getting to that number will make you crit immune. Defense after that still provides new tanks much needed avoidance stats as well as block rating. You have to remember that defense rating effects dodge, parry, and block rating all in one stat.
My general advice for the tanks I talk to is to work on Defense Skill first to get to crit immune (540 Defense Skill or about 689 Defense Rating). Then working on getting your health up as much as possible (26k~28k unbuffed ballpark). Then after that work on you avoidance stats (Dodge and THEN Parry). My end game goal is to have 30k+ health unbuffed, 24%+ dodge, and 20%+ parry.
Post by
cosmicguen
For a newly 80 warrior getting defense capped comes with a price. I had to gem and enchant for it. So my threat and EH suffered from it. As I gear up by running instances and getting badge gear, my defense rating jumped through the roof. I had to take the enchant and gems off my gear to get it back down to 540.
Yeah, I had the same problem. I'm a fury warrior though with Prot as my offspec and I'd been grabbing bits of tanking gear either through rep/crafting or drops no one wanted. Still, I ended up with a couple of def gems and had been aiming at the very high def gear, which meant when it came to really gearing up as prot properly I had to seriously rethink my gear and try and grab lower def stuff. Think my def is currently hovering around the 700 mark, and that's purely from gear :/
My guild have given me the wagging finger and told me I'm a bad person for having so much def. Gonna be a few fights with the guild druid tanks for rings, necks, trinkets and cloaks I think ;)
Post by
nephthyswanderer
It's all about diminishing returns. After you hit the 540 mark, you can get better avoidance and mitigation by focusing on other stats specifically. Different fights can call for different gear sets as well, some with high avoidance, some all about taking big hits.
Post by
93026
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Post by
363599
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Post by
Rekijan
Defense is always good. Its not just crit immunity its also dodge/parry/block and being missed. Its the cheapest stat to boost for avoidance.
It's all about diminishing returns. After you hit the 540 mark, you can get better avoidance and mitigation by focusing on other stats specifically. Different fights can call for different gear sets as well, some with high avoidance, some all about taking big hits.
While it is indeed true you dont want to pile up defense rating to high because of DR the 540 mark is not true. Its closer to 555 actually.
But most ppl gem for sta after 540 which works in pretty much all content now.
Post by
nephthyswanderer
Defense always provides the same amount of avoidance, but at 500+ it takes more and more +def rating to get 1 defense point. Gemming for hit, expertise, and stam is what most go for after this, throwing in dodge when possible. I've heard never gem for parry, it's never better than gemming for dodge.
Post by
23608
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Post by
cosmicguen
To continue the broken record theme having more the 540 defense is not a bad thing. Your guild is wrong for calling you bad for having so much defense. My guild doesn't get upset at me for having 540 Defense (25.8% Dodge 18% Parry 26% Block) while having
Bracers of Unrelenting Attack
(expertise+Stam, no enchant) and
Sinister Revenge
equiped, wonder what your would say.
When you reach around 25% Dodge each additional point of dodge will be worth less then each point of Defense will be for you. For Parry this mark is about 20%. If you get to these points you should not specifically look to add more Dodge or Parry, which really means don't gem for it.
You should always be equiping the best given gear for each specific boss.
Sorry, I should have mentioned it's not a serious complaint from my guild. It's a very good natured sort of joke "ooh you have so much defence you EVIL orc, leave some for the rest of us", not a grain of seriousness in it.
Yeah, I completely agree that having over the 540 def is not technically a bad thing. You're still getting the benefits from it, but 540 is the point where you can stop searching specifically for defence because you're now uncrittable, which is what you want. Extra defence after that point is gravy.
I'm looking for gear with higher dodge/block/parry for my own reasons. At the moment I have parry at about 17%, dodge and block around 20% and I'd like to see those numbers get higher.
In all honesty, I say whatever you're tanking...normals, heroics, raids...so long as you're not struggling to get your job done and get everyone from start to finish in one piece, you're probably on the right track.
Post by
Porcell
Can't believe no one commented on you using a dagger. Bad!
Post by
138583
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Post by
Porcell
Can't believe no one commented on you using a dagger. Bad!
And where exactly do you see an armory link here?
I'm referring to this from CluckChicken:
"My guild doesn't get upset at me for having 540 Defense (25.8% Dodge 18% Parry 26% Block) while having Bracers of Unrelenting Attack (expertise+Stam, no enchant) and Sinister Revenge equiped, wonder what your would say."
Sinister Revenge is a dagger.
And by the way:
Defence enchants are in favour of defence point per point (on both chest and shield, you dont have a good alternative on cloak unless you want to gear towards threat "agi" or towards EH "armor"), while gems are in favour of stamina.
This is exactly correct, but you can extend it to the cloak as well. For all three (cloak, chest, and shield) the defense enchant is point for point better return than the Stamina (Shield), Health (Chest), and Armor (Cloak) in regards to effective health. It just so happens that the most recent TankingTips article is about exactly this topic.
Should I Gear, Gem, or Enchant for Defense
.
Bracers: 12 Defense Rating vs 40 Stamina
Boots: 8 Defense Rating vs 22 Stamina
— Gems: 16 Defense Rating vs 24 Stamina —
Chest: 22 Defense Rating vs 275 Health
Shield: 20 Defense Rating vs 18 Stamina
Cloak: 16 Defense Rating vs 225 Armor
There's a whole list of things (mostly comparing trinkets). The -Gems- line is considered the break point. Anything above the line (1.5 ratio of stamina to defense) it is better to go for the stamina. Under the line is better for defense. The effective health enchants for those three slots just aren't that good and you are better off taking the defense enchants (especially if it can free up defense gems in favor of pure stamina).
Post by
93026
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
marklartank
Think my def is currently hovering around the 700 mark, and that's purely from gear :/
i would like to see this. can you provide an armory link or the specific collection of gear that would put you at 700 defense skill?
or are you talking about defense rating while everyone else is talking about defense skill?
Post by
cosmicguen
Think my def is currently hovering around the 700 mark, and that's purely from gear :/
i would like to see this. can you provide an armory link or the specific collection of gear that would put you at 700 defense skill?
or are you talking about defense rating while everyone else is talking about defense skill?
It's the number I get when I hover over the character sheet, whichever one that is, not the one that's always there without hovering. I can never remember which way round they go.
Tempered titantsteel helm, chained military gorget, iron dwarf pauldrons, durable nerubhide cloak, breastplate of the solemn council, minion bracers, fireproven gauntlets, waistguard of living iron, bolstered legplates, blood-caked stompers, staunch signet, can't remember the other ring, repelling charge and can't remember the other trinket but it's a blue with some def on it.
Only def enchants are rep shoulders and head as far as I remember. I'll log off in my tanking spec later for the
armoury
.
Post by
Porcell
You need 689 defense rating to get the crit immunity, so I'm sure the "700 defense" is talking about defense rating.
Post by
marklartank
It's the number I get when I hover over the character sheet, whichever one that is, not the one that's always there without hovering. I can never remember which way round they go.
that's what i figured. really, nobody ever talks about defense rating (the hover one). the OP was asking about defense skill (the one that's always there).
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