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The QOTD Thread: Goodbye
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Post by
asakawa
If there were an equally effective deterrent to "bad behaviour" then would you accept that violence* to children is something that is best avoided if at all possible?
If so then when faced with the prospect of using physical force to threaten (intimidate and strike fear into) and then hurt your own son or daughter, would you not be willing (eager!) to look for a better alternative? Isn't resorting to violence just the lazy option? It may get the job done in the short term but is it worth it just to stop a tantrum?
The "never did me any harm" thing isn't a good thing to fall back on. 90 year olds that smoked 2 packs a day don't present a convincing argument for smoking being the key to longevity.
*and I'm amazed that brutal terms like "hit" and "slap" are being used here instead of the slightly euphemistic "spanked", I mean it's accurate but the honesty is surprising
Post by
Skithus
I also think abortion is ok, but it doesn't mean my mother aborted me.
Being aborted is negatively correlated with having an abortion. A solid -1 correlation in fact. The best Biology's a &*!@#, ain't she?
If I think hitting children to punish them is ok, then that means I think what my parents did is ok. And if i had kids and hit them to punish them, and then they grew up and thought it was ok I'm not exactly clear where the problem would be, even if your proposed logic wasn't completely faulty.
My
proposed logic. You're the one who resorted to correlative evidence. I retorted with a correlation on opposite end of the spectrum.
The problem is in you using the fact that you don't beat your wife as evidence that you being slapped and spanked was okay.
no i was more using evidence that slapping a child as punishment does not instill in them that violence is the answer to all lifes problems, which is what Elura was afraid a child would take away from it.
Post by
MyTie
I believe in spanking children, yes. It should be used with such caution, though, that if there is any remote chance that it is being used inappropriately, or out of anger, or inconsistently, then it shouldn't be used at all. If you are in this debate, and you cannot understand the difference between spanking a child, and violence against children, then you should not be spanking children.
Post by
asakawa
I grew up in a disciplinary home, where when I mouthed off or cussed I would get my mouth washed out with soap (happened once or twice), or if I did something wrong I got spanked and sent to bed with no supper. Did my parents abuse me? No, I wouldn't call it abuse at all. I knew I had done something wrong and I deserved punishment. Did it teach me? %^&* yes it did /looks around for the Lever 2000. Did I hit kids and yell at them on the school yard? No. Did I turn out fine? I like to think I did.
The opposite of this is that kids who aren't punished with physical violence also turn out great. You are characterising spoilt and pandered to children as children who need a good spanking but really you're just describing spoilt kids and bad parents. Children demonstrably don't
need
to be beaten to grow up into respectful, responsible, contributing members of society and so, if it isn't necessary then why choose it?!(##RESPBREAK##)16##DELIM##asakawa##DELIM##
Post by
240140
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skithus
If there were an equally effective deterrent to "bad behaviour" then would you accept that violence* to children is something that is best avoided if at all possible?
If so then when faced with the prospect of using physical force to threaten (intimidate and strike fear into) and then hurt your own son or daughter, would you not be willing (eager!) to look for a better alternative? Isn't resorting to violence just the lazy option? It may get the job done in the short term but is it worth it just to stop a tantrum?
The "never did me any harm" thing isn't a good thing to fall back on. 90 year olds that smoked 2 packs a day don't present a convincing argument for smoking being the key to longevity.
*and I'm amazed that brutal terms like "hit" and "slap" are being used here instead of the slightly euphemistic "spanked", I mean it's accurate but the honesty is surprising
*I typically only use the word "spank" if it involves the butt. you don't spank someone across the face, you slap them. Hitting I guess is an all encompassing word to define any physical action be it spank, slap punch ect. I don't advocate the punching of your children.
If there were an equally effective deterrent then yes, that should be used instead. But in which case do share your methods for silencing a screaming child in a public place with nothing more then what an average woman would carry in her purse.
edit, I also do not propose the pepper-spraying of children.
Post by
MyTie
Even if it taught my kid nothing, I would never, not once, hit my kid. I don't care. I don't understand what goes through a parents mind when they think it's okay to inflict any kind of pain in their children, even if it's slight.
Hitting a child is a bit broader than spanking a child with an open palm on the butt, after discussing with the child why you are doing it, and after consulting with the other parent. There is such a big difference between reeling back and slapping your kid, and measured discipline to teach consequences. Whenever corporal punishment is brought up, the overbearing theme is the inability for most people to be able to distinguish in their posts between punching a kid in the face, and spanking them. It's kind of entertaining.
Post by
240140
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skithus
Kids don't scream and yell because they are kids.
I would beg to differ.
Post by
Skithus
Even if it taught my kid nothing, I would never, not once, hit my kid. I don't care. I don't understand what goes through a parents mind when they think it's okay to inflict any kind of pain in their children, even if it's slight.
Hitting a child is a bit broader than spanking a child with an open palm on the butt, after discussing with the child why you are doing it, and after consulting with the other parent. There is such a big difference between reeling back and slapping your kid, and measured discipline to teach consequences. Whenever corporal punishment is brought up, the overbearing theme is the inability for most people to be able to distinguish in their posts between punching a kid in the face, and spanking them. It's kind of entertaining.
Exactly, as i said a page ago.
Slapping your child because he is yelling isn't really effective. Asking him to stop yelling first, and then telling him to stop or you're going to smack him, and THEN smacking him if he doesn't is much more effective.
The points you're trying to teach them is cause and effect, and to respect authority.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
Whenever corporal punishment is brought up, the overbearing theme is the inability for most people to be able to distinguish in their posts between punching a kid in the face, and spanking them. It's kind of entertaining.
And I think it's sad that people think that hitting a child in the butt somehow makes it all okay. But that's neither helpful to the conversation nor respectful of the people discussing the issue here. So how about we don't resort to statements like that, eh?
Post by
240140
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Gone
Just to be clear when I said I was ok with spanking, I didn't mean anything more severe than something like tapping a dog with a newspaper, on kids that are too young to really understand words or loss of privileges.
Post by
asakawa
If there were an equally effective deterrent then yes, that should be used instead. But in which case do share your methods for silencing a screaming child in a public place with nothing more then what an average woman would carry in her purse.
I'm not a father but with so many happy, healthy and well-adjusted people not being brought up with corporal punishment, doesn't that constitute reasonable evidence that it isn't a requirement of a good upbringing? If we can accept that it isn't a requirement then why would we ever accept that it is a necessity that we should do it?
Post by
240140
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Gone
Just to be clear when I said I was ok with spanking, I didn't mean anything more severe than something like tapping a dog with a newspaper, on kids that are too young to really understand words or loss of privileges.
I don't understand this, how is the child supposed to understand
why
you are spanking it if it can't really understand words?
I meant understand reason. idk maybe I'm wrong, I don't have kids, and I suspect I won't really know how I feel about this issue until I do. I was hit growing up, and I turned out ok, so maybe I have a predisposition to thinking it's alright.
Post by
240140
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Gone
You could be right, I haven't given it a lot of thought to be honest.
Post by
Skithus
Just to be clear when I said I was ok with spanking, I didn't mean anything more severe than something like tapping a dog with a newspaper, on kids that are too young to really understand words or loss of privileges.
I don't understand this, how is the child supposed to understand
why
you are spanking it if it can't really understand words?
I don't know, Dogs manage.
Post by
Squishalot
I've had this conversation with my girlfriend in the past and we're going to be trying to take a no-physical punishment approach when the time comes. We'll see how that goes though.
I'd just like to question, without 'condoning violence on kids', that is a physical smack worse than emotionally ignoring a child? Think about the alternatives - isolation, naughty corner, all of the children handbooks push to essentially ignore the child and stop providing feedback / attention to it when it's doing something that you don't want them to do.
If we're questioning spanking because the child can't understand why you are spanking, then why would the child understand why you are taking away attention and ignoring it? Why would they understand that they're being isolated in their room? For punishments of any sort to work, the child must know (or associate with) what the negative behaviour is, and the use of spanking or negative reinforcement both build up that association.
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