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The problem with being too tough
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Post by
Bloodspeaker
Hello
First things first, heres my armoury link...
http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Steamwheedle+Cartel&n=%C3%8Dlluvatar
Now onto the problem. I've noticed, as my gear has gotten better and better, that it has become ever increasingly difficult to keep my mana up in heroics (raids is no problem. Yes, i know i outgear hc's.) I keep Divine Plea up all the time i can. Is this a drawback with being tough as a pally? That, as you take less and less healing you are forced to either pull more and more, or abandon hc's altogether? Ok, thats a bit melodramatic. i mostly just wondered if anyone else had come across this and, maybe, found a way around it. Apart from pulling the whole hc :P
I also wondered if any of the other tanking classes had come across the same problem. If there are any pan-class tanks out there i'd love to hear from you.
Thanks for letting me waffle. I look foward to your replies :)
Edit:added the bit about Divine Plea
Post by
Dunsinane
Yes, it is possible to get to the point where running heroics requires a bit of attention to your mana.
Pull more mobs
Drop Consecrate from your rotation after initial threat
Maintain Divine Plea
Take hits deliberately - turn around and get hit from behind, or sit down and take a crit
Or, as was often done in BC, go commando (tank without pants)
Warriors and druids can run into this problem as well, simply because they won't be taking enough damage to generate the rage needed to hold aggro. DK mechanics don't run into this issue as they don't gain anything from being hit (though they can get a bit of an RP boost from Scent of Blood).
Post by
18754
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
hatman555
Lol
Pretty much you have it right there, with only a 5% spec into mana back from healing, its very hard to keep the mana up during the heroics.
Personally I love heroics. I run them all the time and on my server I kinda have a name for myself as the go to tank for a heroic speed run.
Speed running is what i suggest you do.
First go to the dalaran sewers and buy yourself 2 stacks of
Star's Sorrow
. Its 1 gold 12 honor for 20, making it the cheapest water around. Mage food is always a plus, but you should always keep atleast a sack of drinks in your bag.
when you get to your heroic, Lets say UK (personal recored 12 minutes full clear) tell your DPS to give you 1 second after you pull to DPS, this is not because you need help holding threat on 3 or 4 mobs, this is because your going to need help holding threat on 10-14 mobs.
Example. For UK there are 2 guards at the front, then 3 on each side of the wall and 2 that pat around, Pull them all and then run them down the hall with you and pull the last 3 by the first fire seperation. Thats 13 targets for you to AOE to death and gain mana from Heals (oh yes you will need heals lol, armor debuff) and gain mana from dodges.
another tip I can give you besides mass pulling is to use your auto attack on rats and bugs in the heroics, this will let you move from pull to pull with out dropping your divin plee.
If you do get to 1K mana from a lets say 6K mana pool, sit for 3 seconds and have a drink. We don't need much time to get mana back from drinks so it shouldn't really hold up your run that much.
The last thing you can do is judge wisdom. I refuse to lower my DPS by switching seals but the judgeing wisdom will give you that mana you need on boss fights. leave the healing for the healer, you just want your mana back!
oh, make friends with a druid. Prot pally
Innervate
FTW!
Cheers,
Hat
Post by
nephthyswanderer
Judge wisdom, add another point into spiritual attunement, pull more, take off a piece of gear (unless you are swimming in +def, removing your pants may put you under minimum 535).
Also try +mp5 food (not a great way, but it helps) and be sure to keep auto-attacking every thing in sight to keep up Divine Plea.
Since you probably only have 6-7k mana, invest in some cheap mana pots from BC era if they are plentiful.
I've even pulled with little mana, gained a large tps lead and then just auto-attacked for a bit until it began to return. Use with caution as things can go wrong quickly.
Don't forget that LoH restores a bit of mana if you are desperate. I rarely use this in runs that I am overgeared for, it can be a nice emergency mana potion.
Post by
322291
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Squishalot
Worst comes to worst, switch to Seal of Wisdom for 7 seconds - long enough to hit with two Hammers of the Righteous and associated melee attacks in between. Then flick back and refresh your SoV stacks. Unlike Warriors and Druids, we've been given a very simple ability to regain mana from the use of our abilities.
Otherwise, instead of going commando like the others are suggesting, swap for a set of PvP Holy pants or other such thing, which will keep your stamina up, give you some extra crit-resistance (making up for Defence loss on your item) and give you Intellect, upping your mana pool, making Divine Plea more effective.
(
"You don't drop your pants and moon the guy, we're not Warriors; we use Hand of Reckoning, not Taunt!"
)
Post by
211590
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
("You don't drop your pants and moon the guy, we're not Warriors; we use Hand of Reckoning, not Taunt!")
I lol'd...I like to refer to it as Hand of #$%^& Slap
Post by
biogoo
I refuse to lower my DPS by switching seals
I dont know if this is a right attitude from a tank who can hold aggro with any seal. As I see it:
You dont have enough mana and this prevents you from tanking succesfully? Your problem. Do what you can to get it or you just failed your job.
As long as you have enough mana without the SoW by any other means, theres of course no need to switch.
Nothing against you hatman555, you just said a good thing to quote.
Post by
Squishalot
One more thought. Switch gear into a high-threat set instead. Swap out some avoidance pieces for BV and threat-stats like Crit and Str.
That way, you're not compromising your tanking too much, you increase the damage you take marginally, and you blitz through the Heroic a bit faster too.
Post by
Quest
Lol
Pretty much you have it right there, with only a 5% spec into mana back from healing, its very hard to keep the mana up during the heroics.
Its extremely easy. Easier than raids. Stop CCing and start LoSing.
Post by
Dravyck
Take it from a resto shaman that just puts up ES and riptide on the tank, then starts DPSing, PLEASE pull more mobs. Heroics are so boring I wouldn't run them anymore if it weren't for the Daily Heroic.
Post by
Bloodspeaker
Wow!
Thanks for the avalanche of replies guys :)
I probably should have said that i already drop consecrate as early as i can and i avoid even using it where possible. I also don't tend to ever use SoV in hc, purely because of the mana problems. I already do the 'pull lotsa mobs' trick. I scares some of the healers in the guild a bit though. :P
I do have a set that i kept for block. I tend to use if for questing. I'll also try it in hcs a few times.
The reason i wondered if other classes had the same problem is that i've never seen any of the guilds warrior tanks have the same trouble (my offspec is healer.)
Anyway, thats for all the replies. I'll try the block set and if that fails start mooning the 8-10 mob pulls :P
Post by
454309
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
hatman555
I refuse to lower my DPS by switching seals
I dont know if this is a right attitude from a tank who can hold aggro with any seal. As I see it:
You dont have enough mana and this prevents you from tanking succesfully? Your problem. Do what you can to get it or you just failed your job.
As long as you have enough mana without the SoW by any other means, theres of course no need to switch.
Nothing against you hatman555, you just said a good thing to quote.
It is my personal preferance to have high DPS as a tank, it makes things go quicker overal. So yes, i refuse to change my DPS to help any mana issues i might have. This is why in my post i listed many other ways to get mana back with out changing my seal. I judged wisdom, i keep DP up 100% of the time even when walking around (by attacking rats) and I chain pull. if DP goes down i sit for 2.5 seconds and drink to get back to full mana.
I hope that answers your question as to why I don't need SoW up.
*tear* I think I'm pretty good at my job :-(
Lol, thanks for the counterpoint biogoo, happy tanking!
Lol
Pretty much you have it right there, with only a 5% spec into mana back from healing, its very hard to keep the mana up during the heroics.
Its extremely easy. Easier than raids. Stop CCing and start LoSing.
O.o I have 40K unbuffed HP amost 52K fully raid buffed. As a main tank for TOC, even ulduar, I'm taking constant hits for very very larget amounts of damage in a raid 10 or 25. It is the constant healing that keeps your mana full as a prot paladin. You don't even need to use Blessing of sanctuary. when your taking 10K damage a second your getting healed for 10K a second, and thats 2500MP5. In a heroic, if something hits me, it doesn't do that much damage. I'm not taking 10K damage a second, hell sometimes not even 1K damage a second. So you can see that with a %5 return on the tiny heals I need to stay up, mana can get to be a problem (if your not doing all these things we have listed so far in this topic)
You really think that its harder to keep mana up in a raid than in a heroic?
Writing this i just remembered, if your running a heroic with a Disc priest, ask them to use their shields on the rest of the group and let you get hit. Sheilds will just totally kill your mana by healing.
Cheers,
Hat
Post by
Quest
You really think that its harder to keep mana up in a raid than in a heroic?
Yes. It is. Im not interested in your stats. Its not 'hard' either way. One way you have mobs as a mana battery, not to mention DP and a slight bit from healing. The other way you have it the other way around, except DP is still there.
Like I said. Stop CCing and start LoSing, and pull two groups. Im constantly at full mana in heroics and the healer is usually just standing around wondering why he's there.
Post by
hatman555
You mean to tell me that you think its harder to stand still and take heavy hits from a boss, and then get healed by 4 or more healers for free mana, than to run around and need to be VERY attive to pull and hold 6 or more mobs in order to get 2% base mana back from dodges and blocks?
I think you need to re read the definitions of Easy and Hard mate.
Oh, and when I link stats I link them for easy math, not to be a @#$% and rub it in your face that I have 40K health. Round number are easy to work with.
And whats with the "stop CCing and start LoSing?" Not since i was a level 71 did I need to have a CC in a Dungeons. WoTLK has taken away the need for CC. You don't need to do either anymore, I think the only heroic I LoS is in
Utgarde Pinnacle
when I pull the
Terrify
casting
Ymirjar Berserker
.
Cheers,
Hat
Post by
Quest
Oh, and when I link stats I link them for easy math, not to be a @#$% and rub it in your face that I have 40K health. Round number are easy to work with.
You weren't being a douch
e
bag before, but you are now. Your stats don't interest me because they are irrelevant to this discussion.
Yes, mana management in heroics is easier than raids if you know how to do it. ie -> _/ take a seat.
Cheers,
Quest
Post by
hatman555
Ha!
I thought I would get a reply like that. And honestly I'm glad. People like forum drama, hell I like to read forum drama.
For the most part I don't like to cause it, and I'm kind of sorry that this thread has transformed into you and me bickering like old men on a porch.
I honestly believe that mana generation in a raid is MUCH easier than in a heroic, and you saying that something is easier "if you know how to do it" implies that there must be some knowledge or skill involved. Normally something is easier when there ISN'T skill involved. But whatever, It's fine that we disagree, the only thing that I want you to take away from this is that I posted what I thought were helpful tips, you posted a reply to what I said, adding nothing, and dismissed a problem Bloodspeaker is having as “easy”.
So yes, I'm happy for you. you can tank a heroic and keep your mana bar full. Kudos! Post again once you get some better gear maybe then you will have an idea of what its like to regen mana when you don’t need heals. <---yup, that’s me being a *!@# to you Quest.
Anyways, To Bloodspeaker: Many people have given you great tips on how to, not only keep your mana up, but to tank more efficiently.
-Dunsinane
-Minxette
-nephthyswanderer
-Hammerlock
-Squishalot
The fact that 90% of what these people are saying matches is a good indication that they have given you great information!
Good luck man,
Cheers,
Hat
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