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The Garrosh Thread
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Post by
Skreeran
Look at it this way: The orcs, back then, were relatively guileless. Faking your way through an initiation ritual was a massive scandal. Deliberate deception, on that kind of scale, was unheard-of. They had no reason to suspect that their spiritual leaders were being manipulated, because it had never happened before. And by the time the shaman figured it out, they'd already been corrupted.
The first attack on civilians, if we're to believe
RotH
, was Telmor. By that point, they'd already picked up warlock magic; while they weren't being directly controlled at that point, Kil'jaeden definitely had his hooks in them. (As far as an evil chessmaster is concerned, the best thing about a Proud Warrior Race is that it only takes a
minor
twist to reduce them to mere thugs.)
I think the writers for the game aren't counting on players having read the books. (Well, that, or orcs have short attention spans and think anything that's been going on for the past few decades has been going on
forever
. Which I somehow doubt.) Considering that one of those is a PvP quest, I'm almost tempted to rest my case on that.
And it'd be more accurate to say that Thrall shares the ideals of his parents,
et cetera
.I still disagree.
First of all, "It's a PvP quest, it's not really canon" isn't a very good argument. Where it fits with your theory or not has no bearing on its canonicity.
Second, I remind you that the fact that the orcs had warlocks hardly means that the orcs were being mind controlled or had changed greatly as a culture.
Mind you, when the warlocks first demonstrated their power on the prisoners, the vast, vast majority of orc approved 100% of what was happening to the prisoners. If there was any change, it happened without any fel or magical cause.
And if it was a mere cultural shift towards violence (which I don't really buy. Nice, peaceful people don't just turn into brutal, sadistic monsters over the course of a few months. I believe that they were a brutal culture all along, as evidenced by their killing of weak children, and that brutality was merely unleashed on the draenei), then the Mag'har would have been a part of that change too. They were quarantined after the Horde was formed, which was actually
after
the warlock demonstration.
By the way, here's a quote from the meeting where Ner'zhul reveals that the Draenei are the enemy: Grom opened his eyes and grinned at Ner'zhul, who seemed completely nonplussed at having a former antagonist become an ally so quickly.
"Let the shaman continue," Hellscream said. So utter was the silence after his outburst that the words were heard by all, even though they were spoken in a conversational tone. "I want to hear more of this new, old enemy."I guess Garrosh really is his father's son. At least before Azeroth changed Grom. So eager to go to war.
Post by
Rankkor
The point was
him
assuming Squeal is a common name for Garrosh while it isn't, leading to confusion.
On your last note, mods can edit and or even remove post in addition to topic-locks so if they deem something too un-civil I am sure they will manage to keep the thread going.
Edit: Well at least we get a fresh page to start fresh ;)
ok, time to put some points :P
A: lolotea is a girl (as far as I know :P)
and most importantly.....
B: when has she assumed "Squeal" is a common name for garrosh? she hasn't she has a nickname for him, and at no point she has assumed everyone uses it, again I do the same, my nickname for garrosh is "bone-head" and at no point I assume everyone uses it too. Taurenmoo has a nickname for Garrosh too, "Turd of grom" and at no point he assumes everyone uses it. so what exactly are you trying to say here?
C: yhea mods can edit this if it goes out of hand, but we really shound't let it come to that, come on, happy discussions and debates are better than the angry-bitter "ex-wife-on-a-divorce-trial" kinda discussion.
D: if you and lolotea don't see eye-to-eye just agree that you 2 disagree and that's it :P it really isn't that hard.
Post by
Rekijan
A. My bad.
B. The problem is in the confusion this caused. She never referenced the actual name of Garrosh, thereby making it unknown as to who Squeal was. A minor assumption but an assumption in her list of assumptions nonetheless, relevant to my point in the way she discusses things.
C. Agreed.
D. But, but...she started it! :P
Post by
Rankkor
A: rule of internet :P it happens, don't worry about it xD
B: even if that is the case, the issue has been cleared up, thus no need to keep bring it up. Lots of folk were confused when I said "well, at least bone-head is learning to be a better orc" but once I explained that bone-head was garrosh, all confusion ended, and anyone who knows me already know who I'm talking about when I use said nickname.
C. ok.
D. as the wise say "it's not who started it that's important, but who is willing to finish it" xD
Post by
creepingshadow98
and now i feel like a noob >.< i checked the book again and rankkorr you are right :-/
Post by
Monday
and now i feel like a noob >.< i checked the book again and rankkorr you are right :-/
I don't even need to know what the disagreement is to say that if it concerns Horde lore, Rankkorr is always right =P
Post by
creepingshadow98
lol well i actually joined wowhead 2 weeks ago i have
NO
idea who knows everything >.<
Post by
Skreeran
lol well i actually joined wowhead 2 weeks ago i have
NO
idea who knows everything >.<Protip: I know everything.
Post by
Adamsm
lol well i actually joined wowhead 2 weeks ago i have
NO
idea who knows everything >.<Protip: I know everything.
Heh, as long as it's about the Horde, and orcs specifically.
Post by
creepingshadow98
welll..... ya. Horde are the best faction which are most improved in cataclysm and is prefered by most of the players in wow and will always be that way! i love goblins and (sorry all you orc lovers out there) i hate garrosh for throwing them to the orgrimmar slums >:O (btw whos the..... creater of wowhead?)
Post by
Skreeran
(btw whos the..... creater of wowhead?)That would be
Skosiris
. And that's also off-topic. ;)
Post by
Rankkor
and now i feel like a noob >.< i checked the book again and rankkorr you are right :-/
I don't even need to know what the disagreement is to say that if it concerns Horde lore, Rankkorr is always right =P
well, almost right xD but thanks for the compliment bro' =D
I can only answer for the people who hangs in the lore&RP section of the forums but......
for horde-related lore, Skree, hivolt and myself are usually the ones you wanna ask anything :P
for alliance-related lore adams is the go-to dude.
for Varian related lore, Darkton is the defacto go-to guy.
for Thrall related lore, Taurenmoo is the one you may wanna ask something.
:P
Post by
Monday
No dwarf love D=
Post by
GVHB
No dwarf love D=
Nope.
Post by
FarseerLolotea
My spelling isn't bad so why you resort to attacking my intelligence by claiming I would use a phrase as 'sez you!'.How do you manage to interpret "sez you" as an attack on your intelligence or spelling ability? It's a common phrase.
Equally annoying is your assumption that your opinion and views are the only ones that matter.Which is all in your head.
You did it once by assuming I view orcs by the same standards as you, once again by saying it should be obvious to everyone and earlier in the thread by saying
More like Squeal being a Wesley.
and thereby assuming a) everyone refers to Garrosh as Squeal b) that its a fact that he is a Wesly.First of all: I never "assumed" that you viewed anything in any way. The description of how you thought orcs "should" act sounds more Tolkien than post-WoW Warcraft.
A Wesley is a character that fans hate, but other characters (and, therefore, presumably the writers) like. In-game, Garrosh Hellscream has a following; and now, Thrall's going to go and leave him in charge. Draw your own conclusions.
And are you
seriously
getting offended over the particular nickname for him that I use?
If you come into an argument and stubbornly hold onto you own assumptions and don't even consider other arguments to have at least some merit then I indeed wonder why you even bother posting.Let he who is without sin...
easy =) I didn't saw your post till after I posted mine, and since I added an extra reason (rhonin overshadowing malfurion tyrande and illidan) I left my replly un-edited.
we're on the same side here ;)Okay. Wasn't
trying
to bite your head off there.
yo bro', she nicknames garrosh as "Squeal" but I have not so far seen her assuming that everyone else has the same nickname for him.Well, I'm not the only one who calls him that. And it's pretty easy to guess. But...
yeah
.
The point was him assuming Squeal is a common name for Garrosh while it isn't, leading to confusion.I've done nothing of the sort, although I'm certainly not the
only
one who calls him that. I think you're looking for reasons to be offended here.
First of all, "It's a PvP quest, it's not really canon" isn't a very good argument. Where it fits with your theory or not has no bearing on its canonicity.I didn't say "it's a PvP quest, it's not really canon." I said "it's a PvP quest; therefore, they probably don't think the people who
do
the quest will be thinking much about lore."
Second, I remind you that the fact that the orcs had warlocks hardly means that the orcs were being mind controlled or had changed greatly as a culture.
Mind you, when the warlocks first demonstrated their power on the prisoners, the vast, vast majority of orc approved 100% of what was happening to the prisoners. If there was any change, it happened without any fel or magical cause.They'd been manipulated, and had lost the support of their spiritual advisers. They were at a weak point. And Kil'jaeden was breaking out the psychological warfare against
everyone
.
And if it was a mere cultural shift towards violence (which I don't really buy. Nice, peaceful people don't just turn into brutal, sadistic monsters over the course of a few months.The orcs weren't entirely peaceful. Clan feuds weren't unknown, and they fought ogres and gronn. War—even a war that was pointless and deliberately incited by an outside source—brings out the worst in people.
I believe that they were a brutal culture all along, as evidenced by their killing of weak children, and that brutality was merely unleashed on the draenei), then the Mag'har would have been a part of that change too. They were quarantined after the Horde was formed, which was actually
after
the warlock demonstration.And it would not surprise me if the Mag'har were part of the change. While they're uncorrupted physically, it's pretty much impossible that they'd have remained uncorrupted culturally and psychologically.
Hell, there may have been a big rumor campaign going on that
blamed
the draenei for everything. Screwier logic than that happens.
And on another note? I'm not sure how much you've studied cultural anthropology...but drowning weak babies makes them...well, no worse than a lot of real-world cultures, some of which history still names "civilized." Should we conclude that humans are inherently brutal? (I plead the Fifth.)
By the way, here's a quote from the meeting where Ner'zhul reveals that the Draenei are the enemy: Grom opened his eyes and grinned at Ner'zhul, who seemed completely nonplussed at having a former antagonist become an ally so quickly.
"Let the shaman continue," Hellscream said. So utter was the silence after his outburst that the words were heard by all, even though they were spoken in a conversational tone. "I want to hear more of this new, old enemy."I guess Garrosh really is his father's son. At least before Azeroth changed Grom. So eager to go to war.Grom was a lot more cunning.
No dwarf love D=
Nope....
three
new classes when some races don't get
any
?
Post by
Monday
...three new classes when some races don't get any?
I was talking about Rank's post on who is knowledgeable about which races. I thought I spent enough time with dwarf lore that I would get mentioned, but alas I have not.
Anyways:
WE GET IT, YOU DON'T LIKE THAT DRAENEI DIDN'T GET A NEW CLASS. I'VE HEARD IT FROM YOU COUNTLESS TIMES. STOP QQ'ING TO ME.
Post by
FarseerLolotea
WE GET IT, YOU DON'T LIKE THAT DRAENEI DIDN'T GET A NEW CLASS. I'VE HEARD IT FROM YOU COUNTLESS TIMES. STOP QQ'ING TO ME.
My eyes are perfectly dry, thank you. By the way, dismissing someone's complaint as "QQ" is
incredibly
rude.
Post by
Monday
WE GET IT, YOU DON'T LIKE THAT DRAENEI DIDN'T GET A NEW CLASS. I'VE HEARD IT FROM YOU COUNTLESS TIMES. STOP QQ'ING TO ME.
My eyes are perfectly dry, thank you. By the way, dismissing someone's complaint as "QQ" is
incredibly
rude.
Then stop saying it. You have said it to me countless times, you slip it into many conversations and demean other races because draenei didn't get a new class. I'm sorry for the caps/bold, but it is really bothering me that you continue to say "draenei didn't get a new race", and pretty much hijack my post dealing with my time in L&RP and change it to "dwarf get new classes and draenei didn't get any".
I honestly don't care if I'm being rude, the complaints are just getting
really
annoying.
Post by
Rankkor
...three new classes when some races don't get any?
I was talking about Rank's post on who is knowledgeable about which races. I thought I spent enough time with dwarf lore that I would get mentioned, but alas I have not.
muahahahaha<3
getting serious :P is mostly because I know little about dwarves that I also know little about who knows about dwarves..... (if that made any sence)
that being said, u and adamsm are my "go-to" people when I wanna ask about some lore about alliance in general, not just dwarves.
as for the main topic here (bone-head garrosh) I still don't like him.
maybe that will change by the end of the expantion, but rite naw, I don't like him, and even if at some point in the future I somehow like him more, I still want thrall as the warchief.
I also disaprove A LOT the changes being made to the orcs in cataclysm, from the facist streak in ogrimmar, to the whole "dark horde" architecture being re-used now, to the forsaken transforming into Scourge 2.0
I actually used to believe that blizzard didn't wanted to make either faction the "evil" one and "good" one, but rather keep both in shades of gray.
but the more info revealed about cataclysm, the more the horde gets tons of black, and the more the alliance gets tons f white.
I don't like it :S but meh, it's still early, I'm hoping for the tons of black in the alliance to show up, and the tons of white in the horde to show up.
if they do, then blizz really is balanced with their factions, if they don't then it's clear they no longer wanna have 2 gray factions and wanna de-evolve wow into a LOTR rip-off.
Post by
Monday
as for the main topic here (bone-head garrosh) I still don't like him.
^ This. While I wouldn't mind a redemption, I don't really like him.
forsaken transforming into Scourge 2.0
This I am actually kinda happy for. It gives my character an excuse to kill them. I never did, do or will like Forsaken.
but the more info revealed about cataclysm, the more the horde gets tons of black, and the more the alliance gets tons f white.
I don't like it :S but meh, it's still early, I'm hoping for the tons of black in the alliance to show up, and the tons of white in the horde to show up.
It will. Early Wrath there really wasn't anything, it wasn't until later that Varian started his "I'm racist and angry" streak, so probably mid-Cata is when we'll see bad stuff happening imo.
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