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The Garrosh Thread
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Post by
Rekijan
Because being nice and friends with everyone isn't really what you think of when you hear the fantasy race 'orc'.
Post by
FarseerLolotea
I still disagree that the authors wanted us to do anything but hate Garrosh over the course of WotLK. Garrosh insulted Thrall, he insulted Saurfang, he justified child killing, and he didn't do anything good to over come that.
With Saurfang and Varian, on the other hand, it was pretty clear that we were supposed to like them. They did and said epic things and when Varian was hit with backlash, the authors corrected their course, something they have not done with Garrosh.
Just because
some
people like Garrosh doesn't mean that he was intended to be liked by the majority. Hell, there are people who like the Scourge, or who liked the Old Horde under Blackhand, and so on. That doesn't mean the authors want players to like them.
Garrosh isn't a pet character. He is a poorly executed attempt to reignite a war between the Alliance and the Horde, because it just wasn't going to happen under the current Warchief.Which would make him an attempt to cater to the PvP loudmouths Horde-side.
And we aren't supposed to like him, either."Wesley" status is less about whether or not
we're
supposed to like him and whether or not the
writers
like him. And considering that NPCs are giving him cred all out of proportion to his actual accomplishments—and that Thrall left him in charge—I'd say that the writers
do
like him.
If we were supposed to like him, the writers would be writing him in a way that they thought was cool and awesome, not having him insult Saurfang--a fan favorite who they simultaneously
did
have doing awesome things--and justifying the killing of children.And yet, the Krom'gar business has almost singlehandedly convinced a lot of people that he's "badass." And let's not even get started on the duel with Thrall during the Wrath intro event.
Thrall is a pet character (despite the fact that he is also a very good character). Rhonin is a pet character. Med'an is a pet character.I agree on Thrall and Rhonin. Med'an seems more like a failed experiment—especially seeing as he's not scheduled to appear in-game any time soon.
And on the matter of the orcs and their genocide of the Draenei, I still maintain that the demons didn't have to push the orcs very far. They killed women and children and they enjoyed it. The Draenei were the enemy and that meant no mercy, not even for the little ones. That was the orcish way. Durotan and Draka seemed to be the only ones that objected, and that was merely because they were from the Frostwolf clan.
The Zeitgeist of that time was different. Killing the women and children of your enemy was not wrong. Completely wiping out your enemy was an acceptable course of action for the majority of orc culture.
Since that time, the orcs have mostly changed, thanks to Orgrim's, Thrall's, and Drek'thar's influence from the Frostwolf Clan. Even Grom changed on Azeroth.
The Mag'har, however, have not been exposed to the same things that the Azeroth Horde has, and they still live by the old ways. The old Zeitgeist. And just like the Draenei, whom they still call enemy, they think that the appropriate course of action to take with the Alliance, their enemy, is to completely eradicate them.I've played through Nagrand on a Hordie fairly recently. They didn't seem particularly genocidal.
And I've read
Rise of the Horde
several times over. The orcs—and not just the Frostwolf clan—are iffy about the whole business at first. They
become
increasingly brutal over the course of the story.
Because being nice and friends with everyone isn't really what you think of when you hear the fantasy race 'orc'.But yet, Blizzard has—up until now—gone out of their way to make orcs
less
Tolkienian. Sure, they're still Proud Warrior Race Guys, but they're (technically) supposed to be "honorable."
Post by
Adamsm
Because being nice and friends with everyone isn't really what you think of when you hear the fantasy race 'orc'.But yet, Blizzard has—up until now—gone out of their way to make orcs
less
Tolkienian. Sure, they're still Proud Warrior Race Guys, but they're (technically) supposed to be "honorable."
Garrosh does have a sense of honour though; his people(read primarily at this point as orcs) are meant to survive and take down any and all threats to them. It's just, unlike the honour taught to Thrall by people like Sergeant, Doomhammer, Drek'thar and Grom, Garrosh grew up with the older ways of the orc race; where it was seen as okay to drown a child at birth because they were sickly(note, most of the Mag'hars are
not
Frostwolves; yes there are a few there, but those are on the lower end). So yeah, it's not surprised to see his original views were what they were... but after the talk with Saurfang, and considering what we see in the one Cataclysm event, he no longer considers killing children/civilians as 'part of battle/war'. But again, I'm still holding out for Garrosh to change for good, and when Thrall returns, ending up as one of his military advisors... possibly the main one if Saurfang ends up succumbing to death/old age during Cata.
Post by
Rekijan
The Maghar are indeed not genocidal. As for them attacking the dranei, I am pretty sure that was done AFTER outside meddling.
One day, Ner'zhul was contacted by the spirit of his deceased mate, Rulkan (with whom he had a regular correspondence), who warned him about the menace of the draenei, who were plotting to destroy the orcs. After several moons, she introduced him to Kil'jaeden, the "Great One", who began to instruct him in the treachery of the draenei.
Seeking answers, he attempted to commune with the ancestors in Oshu'gun, the "Mountain of the Spirits." He was horrified when the ancestors greeted him as a monster, and the real Rulkan revealed the truth: Kil'jaeden had been manipulating him all along.
wowwiki
But yet, Blizzard has—up until now—gone out of their way to make orcs less Tolkienian. Sure, they're still Proud Warrior Race Guys, but they're (technically) supposed to be "honorable."
Yes but up until now they have been led by Thrall, who is less then a true Orc due this his human upbringing.
Post by
Skreeran
I too have read Rise of the Horde multiple times, and I'm still amazed at how easily the orcs were conned into killing the Draenei. The shaman basically said "Yep, Ner'zhul's telling the truth, they are plotting against us," and not long after the orcs began killing Draenei hunting parties, and then killing villages, and they loved it. They reveled in it.
The orcs at that point were a different culture. They killed their own infants if they were too weak. And they tried to wipe out the Draenei down to the last child before any demon blood or mind control.
And that's the thing. The orcs weren't mind controlled by the demons until right before the battle of Shattrath. Up until that point, they had done everything of their own free will. Durotan and Draka objected, but they were Frostwolves. The only non-Frostwolf that I recall ever objecting in any way was Orgrim, but he mostly went along with it, and the small guilt he felt was just because of his time spent with Durotan.
By and large, the orc race freely and willfully decided to commit genocide against the Draenei simply because they were the enemy.
And if a change did occur that changed the orcs into a more violent culture--and I still maintain that they were a brutal, if honorable, race to begin with--then it could very well have impacted the Mag'har as well, considering we have no idea exactly when the Mag'har were quarantined, only that it was sometime before the Blood Pact. And considering the Mag'har refer to the Draenei as "our ancient enemy" and say things like "I'm no blood elf lover but if it's one thing I hate it's a draenei. If you see draenei or any of their allies at Halaa, be sure to put a boot in their backsides for me."
That tells me that they were just as much a part of the violence back then as the rest of the Horde. Truly, they are a preserved culture.
Look, I'm not insulting the orcs. Their culture has just changed since then. Human beings, here on earth, used to share the idea that completely slaughtering your enemies down to the last woman and child was an acceptable thing to do. Just look at ancient cultures and what they used to do. The Israelites, the Greeks, the Mongolians, the Huns, the Chinese...
The orcs also used to hold that belief. That changed when the Frostwolf ideals began to spread with the rise of Doomhammer and later Thrall. And it went from the top down, to Saurfang (a Blackrock), and Rehgar, and many of the others of the New Horde. It's true that there are the less progressed individuals among the New Horde, who have changed less, and other groups who cling to ways of the Old Horde, like the Dark Horde and the Fel Horde.
My point is, the Zeitgeist of the New Horde is a different one from the original orcs, thanks to the spread of Frostwolf ideals across the whole Horde. The Mag'har, however, have not been exposed as greatly as the New Horde has, so when Garrosh comes to Azeroth, he is still a Hellscream who was raised in the old ways: if your enemy threatens you, kill all of them.
As we can see in Cataclysm, as he is exposed to these more progressive ideals, they have begun to change him in the same manner they changed the majority of the New Horde.
Yes but up until now they have been led by Thrall, who is less then a true Orc due this his human upbringing.Then what have you to say about Saurfang, Drek'thar, Orgrim, Durotan, and Draka? All true blue orcs, and yet they all share Thrall's ideals.
Post by
Rekijan
Those are indeed a few good Orcs but I think of them more as an exception to the rule then an example of the entire race.
But who is to say the orcs following ner'zhul werent influenced by the same dark powers. And if the orcs weren't controlled at all doesn't it verify that they just aren't nice, kinda like Garrosh just isn't a nice guy.
I am also not calling their behavior either good or bad, I am just of opinion that Garrosh is a better example of Orcs then Thrall is.
By the way I am really enjoying this discussion :)
Post by
Skreeran
And if the orcs weren't controlled at all doesn't it verify that they just aren't nice, kinda like Garrosh just isn't a nice guy.Precisely what I've saying. 30-40 years ago, most orcs weren't nice like Thrall, Saurfang, and the New Horde. Those ideals have been preserved in the Mag'har, and in Garrosh.
Now, though, most orcs in the New Horde have turned more to the Frostwolf ideals held by Saurfang, Thrall, Drek'thar, Orgrim, Rexxar, and many other Horde leaders. Garrosh and the other Mag'har, however, have not been exposed to these changing influences, and that's why we see Garrosh as such a drastic departure from most other orcs' ideals.
And I don't think Garrosh is any more of an orc as Thrall, or Saurfang, or Drek'thar, or Rexxar, or any other "good" orcs. He's merely an exceptionally aggressive orc raised in a different time period, so to speak.
Post by
FarseerLolotea
Look at it this way: The orcs, back then, were relatively guileless. Faking your way through an initiation ritual was a massive scandal. Deliberate deception, on that kind of scale, was unheard-of. They had no reason to suspect that their spiritual leaders were being manipulated, because it had never happened before. And by the time the shaman figured it out, they'd already been corrupted.
The first attack on civilians, if we're to believe
RotH
, was Telmor. By that point, they'd already picked up warlock magic; while they weren't being directly controlled at that point, Kil'jaeden definitely had his hooks in them. (As far as an evil chessmaster is concerned, the best thing about a Proud Warrior Race is that it only takes a
minor
twist to reduce them to mere thugs.)
I think the writers for the game aren't counting on players having read the books. (Well, that, or orcs have short attention spans and think anything that's been going on for the past few decades has been going on
forever
. Which I somehow doubt.) Considering that one of those is a PvP quest, I'm almost tempted to rest my case on that.
And it'd be more accurate to say that Thrall shares the ideals of his parents,
et cetera
.
I am also not calling their behavior either good or bad, I am just of opinion that Garrosh is a better example of Orcs then Thrall is.I don't know about that; it sure seems like there used to be a lot
fewer
complete blockhead orcs.
Garrosh is a male counterpart to Krenna. Unfortunately, he doesn't have a sibling who does damage control (and will eventually just get annoyed enough to remove him from the picture).
And on that note: we probably can't credit human influence for Gorgonna. However, I doubt any orc would ever accuse
her
of being a wuss.
...Gorgonna for Warchief!
Post by
Rekijan
Maybe the word 'true' Orc or 'most Orcish' shouldn't be used then but rather 'original' or 'classic'. And me myself I am more of a fan of stereotypes in fantasy then the whole 'lets be friends' mentality thats better for the real world (you know that scary thing outside the window).
Which brings me back to my original starting point.
Why do people dislike Garrosh? Because he goes against what we have grown accustomed to the Orcs like Thrall, but thats not how they should be, in my opinion anyway.
Post by
FarseerLolotea
Maybe the word 'true' Orc or 'most Orcish' shouldn't be used then but rather 'original' or 'classic'. And me myself I am more of a fan of stereotypes in fantasy then the whole 'lets be friends' mentality thats better for the real world (you know that scary thing outside the window).The faction conflict is one thing (although I tend to ignore it except in the rare event that I do a BG). However, they've gone out of their way to move their orcs
away
from the Tolkienian archetype. Moving them back towards that is
not
progress.
Which brings me back to my original starting point.
Why do people dislike Garrosh? Because he goes against what we have grown accustomed to the Orcs like Thrall, but thats not how they should be, in my opinion anyway.Again: if you're looking for
Lord of the Rings
orcs, Warcraft shouldn't be the first setting that you search.
Post by
Rekijan
Where did you get the impression I was talking about Tolkien at all, I never mentioned him. I am talking about the 'original' orcs of wow.
Post by
FarseerLolotea
Where did you get the impression I was talking about Tolkien at all, I never mentioned him. I am talking about the 'original' orcs of wow.Do you actually mean WoW, or the RTS games? Because they were changed significantly in the interim.
It's said that there are
three basic categories of orc
: LotR, Warhammer, and Warcraft. LotR orcs are evil mooks, Warcraft orcs are Proud Warrior Race Guys (like TNG-era Klingons, or the Kang from
Talislanta
), and Warhammer orcs are somewhere in between. The orcs were a
lot
more Warhammer-y in the RTS games than they've been in WoW.
Post by
creepingshadow98
Rhonin is a pet character the reason a lot of people beliave that Rhonin is a pet character is becouse he appears in the trilogy of the a wow book in each he saves the day ( lol please dont be harsh bout "saves the day" part) and hes the guy that ends up giving you a very powerful pve weapon Quel'dalar so those are probs the main reasons why he is described as a pet character by players and blizzerd alike
Post by
Rekijan
Do you actually mean WoW, or the RTS games? Because they were changed significantly in the interim.
It's said that there are
three basic categories of orc
: LotR, Warhammer, and Warcraft. LotR orcs are evil mooks, Warcraft orcs are Proud Warrior Race Guys (like TNG-era Klingons, or the Kang from
Talislanta
), and Warhammer orcs are somewhere in between. The orcs were a
lot
more Warhammer-y in the RTS games than they've been in WoW.
Said by you maybe as an absolute truth, that doesn't mean others hold the same standards.
Post by
FarseerLolotea
the reason a lot of people beliave that Rhonin is a pet character is becouse he appears in the trilogy of the a wow book in each he saves the day ( lol please dont be harsh bout "saves the day" part) and hes the guy that ends up giving you a very powerful pve weapon Quel'dalar so those are probs the main reasons why he is described as a pet character by players and blizzerd alikeHe did
not
need to be involved in the War of the Ancients, much less play any kind of a major role. Nonetheless, Knaak shoehorned him in, and Blizzard retconned his involvement into being canon.
That
is why he's a pet character.
Said by you maybe as an absolute truth, that doesn't mean others hold the same standards....
Okay...I point out something that's rather
obvious
to the majority of people who have played both the RTS games and WoW. And your response is to say "sez you!" and try to accuse me of presenting my opinions as "absolute truth."
Why am I even trying to argue with you if that's the sort of tactic to which you're going to resort?
Post by
Rankkor
Rhonin is a pet character the reason a lot of people beliave that Rhonin is a pet character is becouse he appears in the trilogy of the a wow book in each he saves the day ( lol please dont be harsh bout "saves the day" part) and hes the guy that ends up giving you a very powerful pve weapon Quel'dalar so those are probs the main reasons why he is described as a pet character by players and blizzerd alike
lol-what?
ok:
A: he wasn't suposed to be in that war, he was inserted there and stole the lightspot from the actual protagonists (those being Malfurion, Tyrande, and Illidan) and ended up making these 3 look like complete amateurs next to him, wich is absurd if lore has any bearing on this. He was an unnecesary stranger tossed in to make the whole world spin arround his "Fiery-haired head"
B: he DOES NOT gives the quel'delar. In fact he's not even involved in any way on that quest chain. That's one of the things I'm glad about WOTLK, the fact that while rhonin got added to the game, he played almost no role whatsoever, he only hands over 1 quest for the violet hold, 1 quest for the ruby sanctum (wich is a bread-crumb quest that can be skipped altogheter) shows up in the ulduar trailer, and ends up the algalon quest-chain.
Alliance players get the quel'delar by
Useless Damsel in Distress
Vereesa Windrunner, and Horde players get the quel'delar by Sunreaver.
it's an ELVEN weapon, why on earth would a human give it to ya? it's only logical that a high-elf (Vereesa) or a blood-elf (Sunreaver) hands it over.
those who cannot use swords get their weapon from a human (muriel) but this weapon is a generic mace, not quel'delar.
Post by
FarseerLolotea
A: he wasn't suposed to be in that war, he was inserted there and stole the lightspot from the actual protagonists (those being Malfurion, Tyrande, and Illidan) and ended up making these 3 look like complete amateurs next to him, wich is absurd if lore has any bearing on this. He was an unnecesary stranger tossed in to make the whole world spin arround his "Fiery-haired head"I think I already pointed that part out. No need to rub it in.
(Captcha was "the deserter," as in what we
wish
Rhonin was.)
Post by
Rekijan
@FarseerLolotea
Why do you even try is beyond me as well. My spelling isn't bad so why you resort to attacking my intelligence by claiming I would use a phrase as 'sez you!'.
Equally annoying is your assumption that your opinion and views are the only ones that matter. You did it once by assuming I view orcs by the same standards as you, once again by saying it should be obvious to everyone and earlier in the thread by saying
More like Squeal being a Wesley.
and thereby assuming a) everyone refers to Garrosh as Squeal b) that its a fact that he is a Wesly. And that even in a topic which entire point is to
discuss
whether or he should be hated.
If you come into an argument and stubbornly hold onto you own assumptions and don't even consider other arguments to have at least some merit then I indeed wonder why you even bother posting.
Post by
Rankkor
A: he wasn't suposed to be in that war, he was inserted there and stole the lightspot from the actual protagonists (those being Malfurion, Tyrande, and Illidan) and ended up making these 3 look like complete amateurs next to him, wich is absurd if lore has any bearing on this. He was an unnecesary stranger tossed in to make the whole world spin arround his "Fiery-haired head"I think I already pointed that part out. No need to rub it in.
(Captcha was "the deserter," as in what we
wish
Rhonin was.)
easy =) I didn't saw your post till after I posted mine, and since I added an extra reason (rhonin overshadowing malfurion tyrande and illidan) I left my replly un-edited.
we're on the same side here ;)
and thereby assuming a) everyone refers to Garrosh as Squeal
yo bro', she nicknames garrosh as "Squeal" but I have not so far seen her assuming that everyone else has the same nickname for him.
heck I do too, my nicknames for Varian and Garrosh are "Chin-block" and "bone-head" respectively.
and at no point I assume that everyone else who dislikes these characters uses the same nicks as I do.
on a last note, let's try to keep this civil, this IS a sticky, we don't really want it to get locked and then have to deal with 20 dozens of "I hate/love garrosh" threads every day now. or do we?
Post by
Rekijan
The point was him assuming Squeal is a common name for Garrosh while it isn't, leading to confusion.
On your last note, mods can edit and or even remove post in addition to topic-locks so if they deem something too un-civil I am sure they will manage to keep the thread going.
Edit: Well at least we get a fresh page to start fresh ;)
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