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The Garrosh Thread
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Post by
Rekijan
I think part of the 'problem' is people seeing this through human eyes, and by the rules of our society, while Garrosh is first and foremost a true Orc.So...is pants-on-head stupidity part and parcel of being a "true orc?" How about strutting, bragging, and running one's suck nonstop without actually doing much of anything?
More then Thrall who is basically a human with green skin due to his uprising, I mean the whole point of Thrall putting Garrosh into office is because Thrall viewed Garrosh as the perfect example of how a true (and untainted) Orc should be.More like Squeal being a Wesley.
I have no idea what that rambling is suppose to mean.
Post by
Garenzo
I think part of the 'problem' is people seeing this through human eyes, and by the rules of our society, while Garrosh is first and foremost a true Orc.So...is pants-on-head stupidity part and parcel of being a "true orc?" How about strutting, bragging, and running one's suck nonstop without actually doing much of anything?
More then Thrall who is basically a human with green skin due to his uprising, I mean the whole point of Thrall putting Garrosh into office is because Thrall viewed Garrosh as the perfect example of how a true (and untainted) Orc should be.More like Squeal being a Wesley.
First off, what has he done that's so stupid that everyone keeps talking about?
Second: Why do you call him Squeal and what's a Wesley? :-P
Post by
Skreeran
I think part of the 'problem' is people seeing this through human eyes, and by the rules of our society, while Garrosh is first and foremost a true Orc.So...is pants-on-head stupidity part and parcel of being a "true orc?" How about strutting, bragging, and running one's suck nonstop without actually doing much of anything?
More then Thrall who is basically a human with green skin due to his uprising, I mean the whole point of Thrall putting Garrosh into office is because Thrall viewed Garrosh as the perfect example of how a true (and untainted) Orc should be.More like Squeal being a Wesley.
First off, what has he done that's so stupid that everyone keeps talking about?
Second: Why do you call him Squeal and what's a Wesley? :-PWell, he's just being stupid, mouthing off to Thrall, mouthing off to Saurfang, and acting like he's entitled to whatever he wants for being Grom's son.
Second, she calls him "Hecksqueak" and "Hecksqueal" to insinuate that he's not worthy of the name "Hellscream."
Third, a Wesley is a type of Mary-sue that the writers write in that everybody is supposed to love but everyone hates. The writers of a Wesley are unable to comprehend why everyone doesn't love their awesome character, and continue to write them as the unlikely hero that saves the day every time. It's named after Wesley, the young officer from the first season of Star Trek: The Next Generation. Even Wesley's actor hated Wesley. See more
here
.
I don't think Garrosh is a Wesley. It seems obvious to me that the writers want us to dislike him, which is not what Wesley writers want at all. Med'an is THE Wesley of WoW.
I think part of the 'problem' is people seeing this through human eyes, and by the rules of our society, while Garrosh is first and foremost a true Orc. More then Thrall who is basically a human with green skin due to his uprising, I mean the whole point of Thrall putting Garrosh into office is because Thrall viewed Garrosh as the perfect example of how a true (and untainted) Orc should be.Read my Zeitgeist post I linked earlier. Garrosh is from a different time period, but he is no more a true orc than the other orcs, even if he hasn't been exposed to warlock magic or demon blood.
It's like if I brought a human being forward in time from the thirteenth century. He's no more or less of a man than I am, but I guarantee you that he'd have different views on things like violence, civil rights (both woman's right and black rights), and other philosophical issues upon which our society has changed over the years. That's the Zeitgeist, the spirit of the times.
Back in the Bronze Age, genocide and rape of your enemies was totally fine. There was nothing wrong with killing innocent civilians and taking their wives for your own.
Now, though, our vies on that have changed incredibly. Same thing with the orcs. The orcs, under Doomhamer and Thrall (and Grom, even), have for the most part adopted a Frostwolf and Human based philosophy. The orcs on Outland, on the other hand, have not been exposed to those influences and have remained nearly unchanged since the day the Horde walked through the Dark Portal.
Post by
Garenzo
In that case, Garrosh seems like the complete opposite to a Wesley for me... your first impression when you meet him is that he's a complete A-hole but he does some cool things that make him (slightly) more likeable later on in quest chains. It's obvious Blizzard aren't intending him to be a "Wesley".
Have to agree that Med'an, and also Rhonin fit that description though...
Post by
Rekijan
@Skreeran
Except that Garrosh IS from Thrall's timeline. Thrall is unique amongst Orcs and was key to their liberation from slavery but that part of there history is over now and peace is not an orcish trait. You might argue Garrosh provokes and instigates but he is backed up by majority of the Orcs, he is the one they want to follow because to the Orcs he is the most Orcish.
Post by
Skreeran
@Skreeran
Except that Garrosh IS from Thrall's timeline. Thrall is unique amongst Orcs and was key to their liberation from slavery but that part of there history is over now and peace is not an orcish trait. You might argue Garrosh provokes and instigates but he is backed up by majority of the Orcs, he is the one they want to follow because to the Orcs he is the most Orcish.He's not the most orcish. He's a different kind of orcish. From a different period in orcish history. Azeroth (in particular the defeat of the Horde and their subsequent internment) changed the Horde. The Azerothian Horde would not kill an entire people down to the last woman and child. We have lots of evidence of that, from Drek'thar and Saurfang, all the way down to Grom, who refused to let a human child be killed and then returned Taretha's necklace to her parents.
The Zeitgeist is changing. It hasn't changed everyone in such a major way (hence our seeing Krenna and Agmar and Korm and Krom'gar), but the majority have been affected by their experiences on Azeroth.
The Mag'har and Garrosh, however, have not been exposed to these changing influences, and thus he reflects the Orcish race as it was in the early days of the Horde, when it was okay to completely eradicate your enemies.
Post by
Rankkor
skree, here is a more detailed quest about lilian voss
A Daughter's Embrace
=( now that is a sad story.................
and lolotea......
Varian is the wesley of wow :P not garrosh.
Writers wanted alliance players to like varian, and shoved him everywhere and rubed him on everyone's faces. Wanting the fans to love their little Thrall-clone.
with garrosh that's hardly the case, the moment you meet him at warsong hold he treats you like dirt, even if you saved his ass on nagrand, and doesnt treat you nice ever :S
their intention wasn't for us to love him, but rather hate him, the exact oposite of what a wesley should do.
Post by
Rekijan
Except that Garrosh doesn't want total eradication but honorable war to defend his people. He is aggressive in this but that is just the way Orcs are.
The defeat and slavery indeed changed the Orcs, and under the failing rule of Thrall they tried to adept but as Thrall found out himself this wasn't the way of the Orcs, thats why he wanted them to go back to how Orcs are supposed to be. Taking Garrosh to Azeroth to do this.
Post by
Skreeran
Except that Garrosh doesn't want total eradication but honorable war to defend his people. He is aggressive in this but that is just the way Orcs are.
The defeat and slavery indeed changed the Orcs, and under the failing rule of Thrall they tried to adept but as Thrall found out himself this wasn't the way of the Orcs, thats why he wanted them to go back to how Orcs are supposed to be. Taking Garrosh to Azeroth to do this.
High Overlord Saurfang says: I think it was the sounds of the draenei children that unnerved most of them... You never forget... Have you ever been to Jaggedswine Farm? When the swine are of age for the slaughter... It's that sound. The sound of the swine being killed... It resonates the loudest. Those are hard times for us older veterans.
Garrosh Hellscream says: But surely you cannot think that those children were born into innocence? They would have grown up and taken arms against us!
"Kalimdor should be home to the orcs, Rehgar.
All
of Kalimdor!"
That sounds like genocide to me. At the very least, he's saying that the Horde should kill or expel all non-Horde from Kalimdor, and he's justifying the killing of children. Certainly not an "honorable war to defend his people."
Also, from that same page in the comic book, I give you:
Thrall's Wonky Eye!
Post by
Rekijan
Is that before or after his rise to Warchief? Before or after Thrall telling him about the true tale of Grom?
Post by
Garenzo
Is that before or after his rise to Warchief? Before or after Thrall telling him about the true tale of Grom?
Pretty sure that's before, so seems irrelevant to me. :S
Post by
Skreeran
Is that before or after his rise to Warchief? Before or after Thrall telling him about the true tale of Grom?Before his becoming Warchief.
After Thrall telling him about Grom.
It was right before the Theramore meeting, where he said
this
...
Post by
212003
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
306612
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
FarseerLolotea
Well, he's just being stupid, mouthing off to Thrall, mouthing off to Saurfang, and acting like he's entitled to whatever he wants for being Grom's son.Bingo.
Second, she calls him "Hecksqueak" and "Hecksqueal" to insinuate that he's not worthy of the name "Hellscream."Again, bingo.
Third, a Wesley is a type of Mary-sue that the writers write in that everybody is supposed to love but everyone hates. The writers of a Wesley are unable to comprehend why everyone doesn't love their awesome character, and continue to write them as the unlikely hero that saves the day every time. It's named after Wesley, the young officer from the first season of Star Trek: The Next Generation. Even Wesley's actor hated Wesley. See more
here
.Actually, going by that page, a Wesley is an "author's darling character" that the writers feel the need to shove in the audience's faces—usually to the detriment of the story as a whole—despite the fact that the fans hate him. (But yes, it's named after Wesley Crusher and how much Wil Wheaton even hated him.)
I don't think Garrosh is a Wesley. It seems obvious to me that the writers want us to dislike him, which is not what Wesley writers want at all. Med'an is THE Wesley of WoW.I don't see "the writers want us to dislike him" at all. I see "the writers like him and couldn't care less if the players don't."
And Med'an's not a Wesley. They haven't felt the need to shove him in our faces at
all
yet (at least, not in-game). I think the writers are aware that shamageicators—especially when drumorc racials are figured into it—need a nerf.
Rhonin, on the other hand, is borderline. This is a character who players stated that it was bad enough that he's canon at all. But Blizzard went and put him in-game anyway.
Now, though, our vies on that have changed incredibly. Same thing with the orcs. The orcs, under Doomhamer and Thrall (and Grom, even), have for the most part adopted a Frostwolf and Human based philosophy. The orcs on Outland, on the other hand, have not been exposed to those influences and have remained nearly unchanged since the day the Horde walked through the Dark Portal.In
Rise of the Horde
, the orcs—even those outside of the Frostwolf clan—
weren't
, for the most part, brainless rageoholics with entitlement complexes.
Post by
90985
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
I don't think Garrosh is a Wesley. It seems obvious to me that the writers want us to dislike him, which is not what Wesley writers want at all. Med'an is THE Wesley of WoW.I don't see "the writers want us to dislike him" at all. I see "the writers like him and couldn't care less if the players don't."It seems pretty clear that the writers wanted us to hate Garrosh, at least up to this point. Players loved Saurfang, so they had Garrosh call Saurfang "old one" and his advice "boring."
Players loved Thrall (for the most part), so they had Garrosh mouth off to Thrall at
every
opportunity, a radical change from the Garrosh of Nagrand.
They had Garrosh justify the killing of Draenei children, which no one can agree to.
And nowhere did they ever try to make Garrosh feel awesome, or cool, or anything to reverse the hatred that he was getting. He did nothing but gripe in ToC; he sangs songs and sat on his ass in ICC; he sent the player out to fight Veridus the Flenser by ourselves, while
Saurfang
saved us...
With the multitude of things that make us hate him--that the writers surely guessed would make us hate him--and in the absence of anything to make him into a hero, or a player favorite, I can only assume that they want us to hate him.
They knew we loved Saurfang, so they made Saurfang epic. They gave him and epic speech and and epic quest and a big role in ICC. They could have done the same for Garrosh had they wanted us to love him.
Hell, look at Varian. He was introduce
after
Garrosh was, and he's still more loved. Look at what they did for him: they gave him big epic fighting roles (Scourge invasion, Battle of Undercity, Comics), they gave him big speaking parts, they did everything they could to make the playerbase like him, and when that didn't work as well as they'd hoped, they attempted fixed it with his speech in ICC.
In Wrath of the Lich King, at least, they have done nothing but try to make us hate Garrosh. And it hardly seems that the writers love him, if they're only making him do bad things and never any good ones. What kind of author's darling character justifies the killing of children?
Now, though, our vies on that have changed incredibly. Same thing with the orcs. The orcs, under Doomhamer and Thrall (and Grom, even), have for the most part adopted a Frostwolf and Human based philosophy. The orcs on Outland, on the other hand, have not been exposed to those influences and have remained nearly unchanged since the day the Horde walked through the Dark Portal.In
Rise of the Horde
, the orcs—even those outside of the Frostwolf clan—
weren't
, for the most part, brainless rageoholics with entitlement complexes.Yes, Garrosh, thanks to his lineage, is a particularly ragehead orc. However, it's not
just
his lineage.
I submit that Garrosh is just like Grom was back during the rise of the Horde. The orcs then had no qualms about killing women and children. They killed draenei civilians, and they needed very little urging to do so. If the shaman said the draenei were plotting against them, then the entire race had to go, down to the last child. This was before the demon blood, before any magical corruption. The orc people, as a part of their culture, saw no problems with killing women and children if they were the enemy. What Garrosh tells Saurfang--that "those children . . . would have grown up and taken arms against us!"--is almost certainly exactly what Garrosh was told when he was a child. Garrosh is the product of another time, another Zeitgeist, and that is why his ideas are so different than Thrall's, Saurfang's, Drek'thar's, Orgrim's, or Grom's.
Further evidence for this, I think, is how we see Azeroth and the same influences that changed many of the other orcs changing him as the years pass:
Garrosh Hellscream says: I spent a very long time in Northrend, Krom'gar. I learned much about the Horde at that time.
Garrosh Hellscream says: While there, a wise old war hero told me something that I would carry with me forever...
Garrosh Hellscream says: "Honor," Krom'gar, "No matter how dire the battle... Never forsake it."
Post by
FarseerLolotea
It seems pretty clear that the writers wanted us to hate Garrosh, at least up to this point. Players loved Saurfang, so they had Garrosh call Saurfang "old one" and his advice "boring."
Players loved Thrall (for the most part), so they had Garrosh mouth off to Thrall at
every
opportunity, a radical change from the Garrosh of Nagrand.And yet, Garrosh was picking up fanboys even before the leak. And lore-wise, he had a following.
They had Garrosh justify the killing of Draenei children, which no one can agree to.Oh, trust me; there are still people sufficiently (ahem) sore in the tailbone over draenei that they'd fanboy over Garrosh just
for
that.
And nowhere did they ever try to make Garrosh feel awesome, or cool, or anything to reverse the hatred that he was getting. He did nothing but gripe in ToC; he sangs songs and sat on his ass in ICC; he sent the player out to fight Veridus the Flenser by ourselves, while
Saurfang
saved us...
With the multitude of things that make us hate him--that the writers surely guessed would make us hate him--and in the absence of anything to make him into a hero, or a player favorite, I can only assume that they want us to hate him.
They knew we loved Saurfang, so they made Saurfang epic. They gave him and epic speech and and epic quest and a big role in ICC. They could have done the same for Garrosh had they wanted us to love him.And again: Garrosh was acquiring fanboys even before the Cataclysm leak. (It was approximately concurrent with backlash against Varian.) Not many, at first; mainly loudmouthed Horde faction snobs who wanted
moar PvP
to "put the WAR back in WARcraft" (because it's
soooooo
peaceful when dragons are trying to chomp you), but the numbers increased.
Sure, they didn't try very hard to shill him before. Now, they're pulling out that entire Krom'gar thing...so, yeah.
Hell, look at Varian. He was introduce
after
Garrosh was, and he's still more loved. Look at what they did for him: they gave him big epic fighting roles (Scourge invasion, Battle of Undercity, Comics), they gave him big speaking parts, they did everything they could to make the playerbase like him, and when that didn't work as well as they'd hoped, they attempted fixed it with his speech in ICC.I think the backlash against Varian was part of
why
Garrosh started acquiring fanboys. >_<
In Wrath of the Lich King, at least, they have done nothing but try to make us hate Garrosh. And it hardly seems that the writers love him, if they're only making him do bad things and never any good ones. What kind of author's darling character justifies the killing of children?One aimed at the same kind of player that's still white-knighting Sylvanas, perhaps?
Yes, Garrosh, thanks to his lineage, is a particularly ragehead orc. However, it's not
just
his lineage.
I submit that Garrosh is just like Grom was back during the rise of the Horde. The orcs then had no qualms about killing women and children. They killed draenei civilians, and they needed very little urging to do so. If the shaman said the draenei were plotting against them, then the entire race had to go, down to the last child. This was before the demon blood, before any magical corruption. The orc people, as a part of their culture, saw no problems with killing women and children if they were the enemy. What Garrosh tells Saurfang--that "those children . . . would have grown up and taken arms against us!"--is almost certainly exactly what Garrosh was told when he was a child. Garrosh is the product of another time, another Zeitgeist, and that is why his ideas are so different than Thrall's, Saurfang's, Drek'thar's, Orgrim's, or Grom's.Telmor happened
after
they started training warlocks. Kil'jaeden had his claws in them pretty deep by then.
Post by
Skreeran
I still disagree that the authors wanted us to do anything but hate Garrosh over the course of WotLK. Garrosh insulted Thrall, he insulted Saurfang, he justified child killing, and he didn't do anything good to over come that.
With Saurfang and Varian, on the other hand, it was pretty clear that we were supposed to like them. They did and said epic things and when Varian was hit with backlash, the authors corrected their course, something they have not done with Garrosh.
Just because
some
people like Garrosh doesn't mean that he was intended to be liked by the majority. Hell, there are people who like the Scourge, or who liked the Old Horde under Blackhand, and so on. That doesn't mean the authors want players to like them.
Garrosh isn't a pet character. He is a poorly executed attempt to reignite a war between the Alliance and the Horde, because it just wasn't going to happen under the current Warchief. And we aren't supposed to like him, either. If we were supposed to like him, the writers would be writing him in a way that they thought was cool and awesome, not having him insult Saurfang--a fan favorite who they simultaneously
did
have doing awesome things--and justifying the killing of children.
Thrall is a pet character (despite the fact that he is also a very good character). Rhonin is a pet character. Med'an is a pet character.
Garrosh is just a means to an end.
And on the matter of the orcs and their genocide of the Draenei, I still maintain that the demons didn't have to push the orcs very far. They killed women and children and they enjoyed it. The Draenei were the enemy and that meant no mercy, not even for the little ones. That was the orcish way. Durotan and Draka seemed to be the only ones that objected, and that was merely because they were from the Frostwolf clan.
The Zeitgeist of that time was different. Killing the women and children of your enemy was not wrong. Completely wiping out your enemy was an acceptable course of action for the majority of orc culture.
Since that time, the orcs have mostly changed, thanks to Orgrim's, Thrall's, and Drek'thar's influence from the Frostwolf Clan. Even Grom changed on Azeroth.
The Mag'har, however, have not been exposed to the same things that the Azeroth Horde has, and they still live by the old ways. The old Zeitgeist. And just like the Draenei, whom they still call enemy, they think that the appropriate course of action to take with the Alliance, their enemy, is to completely eradicate them.
Post by
creepingshadow98
now...what i cant understand is that why would blizz change thrall (liberater of orcs,the other guy how helped slay mannoroth) for the low estemed brown skinned orc that hid away in shame doing nothing to help even the magh'har clan? its not very smart is it? becouse now garrosh is bullying the other races he does'ent care about the goblins (which in futre i will murder him for that.... >:( ) he STILL hasent build even a small area for blood elfs (my favourite race until cataclysm comes out :P) and crammed the taurans into a small little area leaving his orcish race supreme (its nazi $%^& all over again :( )
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