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Subtlety
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Post by
105269
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Post by
Noxnoctem
Mutilate > Backstab.
Post by
105269
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Post by
Musica
Mutilate > Backstab.
personal preference != constructive advice
btw i tink sleight of hand is kinda not useful? cuz u'll be atking from the back, kinda generates lesser threat already i presume? not too sure since im new to subt rogue too
Post by
105269
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Post by
KidB
Mutilate > Backstab.
personal preference != constructive advice
Except that it's not personal preference. Backstab is dead for more than an expansion and a half.
Post by
107239
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Post by
105269
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Post by
Haptic
Mutilate > Backstab.
personal preference != constructive advice
Except that it's not personal preference. Backstab is dead for more than an expansion and a half.
That's great; in a non-constructive way as well. Care to elaborate why BS is inferior to mut other than it would require the fanboys to find a new lever to manipulate in the circle jerk that is the sub basher club? (Read nearly any thread that has to do with sub and you will see the fanboys I refer to - usually with little gems like "mut > sub 1!11one!").
Sure I run mut for pve, but I run sub for pvp and am genuinely interested in why it's not workable in pve. One sentence answers rarely explain anything beyond the fact that someone didn't actually read the original post.
Post by
disastro
Mutilate > Backstab.
personal preference != constructive advice
Except that it's not personal preference. Backstab is dead for more than an expansion and a half.
That's great; in a non-constructive way as well. Care to elaborate why BS is inferior to mut other than it would require the fanboys to find a new lever to manipulate in the circle jerk that is the sub basher club? (Read nearly any thread that has to do with sub and you will see the fanboys I refer to - usually with little gems like "mut > sub 1!11one!").
Sure I run mut for pve, but I run sub for pvp and am genuinely interested in why it's not workable in pve. One sentence answers rarely explain anything beyond the fact that someone didn't actually read the original post.
I really dont understand all these fanboys. Sure, combat or mutilate may be better dps, but what is the point if you dont enjoy it? I guess I come from the perspective that this is a game and I play it for enjoyment. I didn't enjoy combat spec while leveling or through BC, so I stuck to mutilate for pve and sub for pvp.
Under ideal conditions on ideal fights, the cookie cutter builds will most likely give you the best dps, BUT... thats not to say other suggested builds aren't viable.
It reminds me of the beginning of WotLK arena season 5. Everyone was saying "Mutilate/prep or GTFO of the arena" and yet there was one guy who specced shadowdance/ambush and hit rank 2 in his 2v2 ladder. He was one of the less than 1% of rogues to use shadowdance spec. Did he use "the only viable pvp spec"? No. Was he successful? Yes.
Its really a question of compromise. What % of your dps would you sacrifice to play a spec you enjoy more?
To OP: I'd suggest trying it out. If it doesn't meet your expectations, you can always switch back but if you get enough out of it to make you happy, then all the better.
As a side note, my rogue doesn't have best in slot gear and is only in mostly ulduar 25 stuff (average gear level 225 according to gearscore). I normally raid as Mutilate (cookie cutter) but I was playing around with an SHS/shadowdance spec in some bg's. I then went to a 10man toc raid and instead of using my dual spec mutilate pve spec, i stayed in my pvp spec (no precision but 314 hit rating from gear) and my dps was almost on par with what I would normally get as mutilate. HaT provided a good stream of combo points and it was a refreshing change of pace.
Post by
Noxnoctem
1. Haemorrhage is a very lacklustre attack (loldaggers). Sure it's only 30 energy (talented) but it's less efficient than Sinister Strike. You may say sure but it has a useful debuff, but the 10 measly charges don't make up for this.
2. Backstab is the least damage
per resource
attack in the entire game (probably). You need a minimum of 15 points up to 50% of a feral druid's Shred with the same energy cost to boot. (42 vs 45 with 50 points in Sub). I partly agree with that fact that Rogues should always attack from behind but that won't always be the case. The more and more conditional something is the less it can be used generally, thus limiting it's effectiveness. And what happens when you can't use Backstab? You going to use Hemo as your CP generator? As I said before, loldaggers.
3. Also Subtlety has naturally low DPS due to the fact it has a low number of effective PvE talents. Opportunity, Relentless Strikes, Deadliness, Sinister Calling, Slaughter from the Shadows, and HaT. Opportunity and Relentless Strikes work better with Mutilate. HaT is extremely group dependent; although this will be less of an issue in 25-mans. But not very effective in 10-mans. Sinister Calling and SftS pale in comparison to Hunger for Blood and deep Combat.
Subtlety is more of a burst spec. I'm not denying the damage you can get with it when blowing your cooldowns but the nature of the spec doesn't really "fit" with PvE.
Go ahead, if you want to play Subtlety, I'm not stopping you. I'm not part of the "We hate Subtlety club". I'm not part of the "lolmutilateisawesomelet'sgetoutourdongsandcirclejerk" club either. I state well known fact.
At this moment in time Deep Subtlety is inferior as a PvE DPS tree. Just remember that.
Post by
Haptic
I have to hand it to you: that's probably one of the most well reasoned posts I have seen against subtlety in the month or so I have been actually reading this board. Kudos on that one.
I'm obviously not versed enough to argue the specifics of your post but I am man enough to admit when someone got called out and responded like a pro.
Couple things:
Could you explain the second sentence of item #2 again though? I'm not sure I follow there.
when backstab isn't viable (positioning or whatever) would shiv be a viable alternative?
Those things aside I do agree that subtlety gives lower dps on target dummy for me but you do miss things like HaT and buffs and such so it is a legit line of questioning imo. Maybe not viable, but all good builds come from someone questioning the status quo.
Post by
105269
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Post by
1771
I want to point out that you should never use hemo with a dagger and it seems you are planmning to do so seeing as you have taken puncturing wounds.
But in a HaT spec combo generators are rare, so I believe it's possible to weapon-change through slow MH to a slow dagger.
1. Haemorrhage is a very lacklustre attack (loldaggers). Sure it's only 30 energy (talented) but it's less efficient than Sinister Strike. You may say sure but it has a useful debuff, but the 10 measly charges don't make up for this.
About hemo, I wanna point out a very important issue (more of a QQ note), when people QQed about hemo damage at LK release it was because they don't realise something.
Hemo damage increases (in comparison to sinister strike) as you aquire higher leveled weapons, because eventually the 10% weapon damage of hemo will outweigh the static added damage of sinister strike.
Post by
288702
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Post by
56987
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Post by
176977
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Post by
105269
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Post by
1771
Tricks of the trade can only be used on others.
HaT spec uses alot more finishers then mutilate or combat so investing more resources into eviscerate (or envenom) is cruicial. I suggest you take the glyph of eviscerate and invest in imp. evis.
If you are only using ShD for refreshing garrote I don't see the point in picking the glyph, backstab and slice and dice will be alot better.
HaT will be alot better with T10, imo it was made specifically to boost sub viability.
Post by
56987
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