This site makes extensive use of JavaScript.
Please enable JavaScript in your browser.
Classic Theme
Thottbot Theme
So...Skyrim
Post Reply
Return to board index
Post by
Rankkor
The NCR offers order, but are unnable to maintain it. To me thats basically anarchy, which is the same thing you get with the independant ending. I mean without the corriuer running around like some desert messiah, the gangs would rule the Mojave without the NCR or the Legion.
Not really. As I said, if you do 100% completion, then on the independent ending, the Securitron army successfully imposes order on the Mojave Wasteland, eliminating all the gangs, keeping the NCR out, and whatever leftovers of the legion out as well.
Also, I forgot to add something about the enclave. Currently (as of New Vegas) the Legion is the bigger bad, if anything, because the Enclave is nothing more than a shadow of their former selves, with their decimation on Fallout 2 and 3, all that remains is a slight group of old people who are so dissillusioned that they basically are rolling over to die.
Thats judging by todays standards though
And those are the standards we need to preserve, just because some emergency happened, doesn't excuses us to be reversing back to a flawed, history-proved-inefficient system that we just KNOW is gonna create more problems than solutions.
One could also argue though, that we needed the structure that those brutal societies gave us in order to build what we have now.
And how did they do that? by making us learn from their mistakes. Part of that lesson consists of NOT REPEATING THEM. Those civilizations strived to leave a permanent mark on the world, and ended up auto-destructing themselves. It happened to the Mongolian Empire, to the Roman Empire, to Alexander's Empire, and to Napoleon's Attempt of an empire.
What kind of fools do we have to be, to resort to a social structure that we KNOW already failed before? Isn't the point of the mistakes marked in history to NOT repeat them?
Post by
Gone
And those are the standards we need to preserve, just because some emergency happened, doesn't excuses us to be reversing back to a flawed, history-proved-inefficient system that we just KNOW is gonna create more problems than solutions.
Its not just some emergency though. Society has been this way for hundreds of years in Fallout, its not like things are just going to go back to the way they are now. Its a complete reboot.
What kind of fools do we have to be, to resort to a social structure that we KNOW already failed before? Isn't the point of the mistakes marked in history to NOT repeat them?
Becuase they didnt really fail. I actually edited by post right before you made yours I think you missed it caus I went over that, Ill just copy and paste it. The bolded part of my respinse is where I go over that.
Why on earth would all that barbarism be necessary? Again, we're humans, not animals, we shouldn't need to reverse back to a feral state whenever the crap hits the fan.
Ideally
, even in times of crisis, we should still act like men. There is pragmatism, and there is borderline animalistic behavior.
Because humans can be barbaric, and act liek animals when pushed to that. The point of my brining up all those ancient societys (some of them not so ancient) is to show what humans become when they dont have the comfort of society.
Ideally we should still act like men in times of crisis yes. But Fallout isnt really a crisis that eventually ends, its a new more barbaric way of life. And theres no place for idealism there, because historys shown us time and again what human beings really act like in deperate times.
Do we have good individuals? Yes. And I believe the NCR for example is good at heart, they do care about the future of hummanity. But all they offer is chaos and anarchy. So if it takes a force like the Legion to stomp out that anarchy, then yes.
let the Legion do that, and serve their purpose, just like ancient Rome did. Then when the time comes they will eventually fall, and a new society will use the builing blocks they left to build something better.
Thats always happened in history, 500 years after the events of Fallout the Legion might just be one of those dark times in history we were talking about.
And how did they do that? by making us learn from their mistakes.
They also gave us a form of higher civilization. Its not like all the tribes conquered by Rome were such peaceful folks before that, many of them were just as brutal, if not more so, than the Romans.
Let me give you an example of how in some cases the Legion can run things better:
The Powder gangers basically arose because the NCR tried the hummanitarian approach with criminals. They tried to lock them up, just like we do in todays civil society. But they couldnt maintain the prison, so the prisoners broke out and took it over, then used it as a base to terrorize innocent civilians and massacer towns.
Now had the Legion been in charge they would have simply rounded them all up at once and executed them.Yes it may be wrong morally, by todays standards. But todays standards arent an luxurey people can afford, as demonstrated by the NCR.
Not really. As I said, if you do 100% completion, then on the independent ending, the Securitron army successfully imposes order on the Mojave Wasteland, eliminating all the gangs, keeping the NCR out, and whatever leftovers of the legion out as well.
That goes more into what I said though, the courrier being some kind of messiah. One person leading an army of robots is basically a totalitarian dictatorship. if you take out the corriuer and put somebody with an evil disposition in there, then it could be a lot uglier than the Legion.
I hope Im not being argumentative btw, I like to play devils advocate but people have told me it can be annoying Xp
Post by
Thror
I had a reply written much sooner but it was extremely long and the post got somehow deleted so I bailed on it for a few days.
Since it's a few pages back, I'll quote what I posted just to refresh some memories.
rank, I always found the way you look at the Empire super ultra naive. You blame them for their actions, but you do not try to understand the actions. They gave up to the Dominion? Well, maybe because they didn't all want to be annihilated.
Duh.
You spite them for abandoning Hammerfell, yet not abandoning it could lead to an early demise. You spite them for... not helping the Dark Elves of Vvardenfel, well, maybe they didn't want to spread their army thin trying to save what couldn't be saved. What would they do? Rebuild fricking Vvardenfel? Help the Dark Elves take refuge on some different island, rather than Solstheim? The Empire lost the war. They cling to life despite the costs. They are very much on a downward spiral. The Empire doesn't want to lose Skyrim because losing a province full of great fighters that the Thalmor didn't outright ask them for is a huge and a stupid loss. If the plans of the Thalmor are to be foiled, splitting up is not the way to do so, and the Empire very much acknowledges that.
rank, I always found the way you look at the Empire super ultra naive. You blame them for their actions, but you do not try to understand the actions. They gave up to the Dominion?
Well, maybe because they didn't all want to be annihilated. Duh.
And you know this how? dude, they were winning, they successfully manged to push back the thalmor from Cyrodiil, the Thalmor were not as numerically superior as the empire (again, Dominion= 3 nations. Empire = 4 nations. Basic math dude) AND on top of that, the Thalmor were spread too thin, both fighting hammerfell, fighting the Empire on Cyrodiil, and reinforcing their own borders.
What was the point of fighting at all if as soon as they get the capital back, they surrender, and accept every single thalmor demand? a more wiser course of action would had been NOT try to take the capital, instead fall back to a more fortified region of Tamriel, and attack the Thalmor once you amass a larger army from the 4 remaining nations.
But of course that would mean poor Emperor Titus not having his throne back. BOO-HOO.
Good job only selecting the part you think you can argument against, and missing the point with Vvardenfel for example.
Seriously rank, you need to understand a few things to shift your opinion to a more rational one.
Read
The Great War
.
Understand that you do not just raise an army
out of thin air
. No, that does not only mean you need MEN and IRON. You also need MONEY and MORALE.
The Imperial City is an important symbol and losing it to the Thalmor forever would impend MORALE.
The Imperial City was the capital city and there was a whole lot of MONEY in it and the Thalmor have RANSACKED IT. The capital city of the Thalmor has not been ransacked. Mercenaries rank, guess who they will side with.
What it all ultimately comes to, however, is the fact that the Emperor has made the choice he made. He might have chosen poorly and MAYBE the empire would be able to defeat the Thalmor, but the Emperor
didn't think so
. That is why he agreed with the White-gold concordat. Do you really think the Emperor supports the goals of the elves? That he was totally fine with giving away good provinces? That he didn't mind forbidding a popular religious figure? You think the Emperor would not try to drive a knife through the heart of the Thalmor
if he would think he is able to
?
Both the Stormcloaks and the redguards of Hammerfell are making a stupid choice when they shun the Imperium. They do not see that if they alienate themselves from the Empire, they are making themselves vulnerable to the Dominion. They only care about their immediate freedom when their entire existence is at stake.
Post by
EdantheDwarf
Thinking about wiping a town off the map as a werewolf where should I go?
Post by
Gone
Thinking about wiping a town off the map as a werewolf where should I go?
Solstheim
Post by
EdantheDwarf
Where is that?
Post by
Gone
Where is that?
Morrowind lol
In seriousness if you want ome real mayhem, go into a city, use your storm shout, then transform and go on a rampage.
Post by
EdantheDwarf
I was thinking about Markarth. Just because I hate that place.
Post by
Rankkor
@Thror, everyone is entitled to their opinions, you and me both, and in my case, I've experienced first hand how does it feels like to be f**ked over by your own government, without the courtesy of applying some lube first, so no, I have no sympathy for the empire. From my point of view, they care about the capital, all provinces be damned to hell. I for one believe there is a greater chance to defeat the thalmor by reorganizing the free provinces of tamriel into a new coalition and leave Cyrodiil to fend for themselves, and see how do they like THAT.
And BTW I have plenty of reasons to support my belief that the empire doesn't give a rat's ass about the provinces. All the way back to oblivion you can hear NPCs comenting how bandits run rampart through the provinces and the imperial legion does nothing. There is a Nord NPC on Skingrad that mentions how his wife and daugther in skyrim were butchered by raiders, and there was an imperial fort less than a few leagues away. Not only they refused to act, they also refused to punish the raiders.
Its the same old story, greed-driven empire, conquers provinces, demand demand demand, give nothing back. Its a story I know personally, and I'll be damned if I let it happen in an environment where I actually can do something about it.
What it all ultimately comes to, however, is the fact that the Emperor has made the choice he made. He might have chosen poorly and MAYBE the empire would be able to defeat the Thalmor, but the Emperor didn't think so.
And he was wrong, why do others have to pay up for HIS screw ups? what exactly gave him the right to rule in the first place? Need I remind you he was a colovian WARLORD who self-proclaimed himself Emperor?
@Ryja
Its not just some emergency though. Society has been this way for hundreds of years in Fallout,
its not like things are just going to go back to the way they are now
. Its a complete reboot.
They can if people are willing to. Look at New Canaan, there's lots of settlements where the world is actually managing to get back on its feet. A massive earthshattering cataclysm happened, ok, I still say that's no reason to forego our humanity and go feral. We can rebuild society if we actually give a damn.
Because humans can be barbaric
, and act liek animals when pushed to that. The point of my brining up all those ancient societys (some of them not so ancient) is to show what humans become when they dont have the comfort of society.
ohh trust me I know how barbaric humans can be, I lived in a hellhole where violence was not a worse-case scenario, it was a means of communication, a place where in a population of a few thousands, no less than 150 die every year. So I know how barbaric human nature can be. We can either accept that, or work to change that.
The Powder gangers basically arose because the NCR tried the hummanitarian approach with criminals. They tried to lock them up, just like we do in todays civil society. But they couldnt maintain the prison, so the prisoners broke out and took it over, then used it as a base to terrorize innocent civilians and massacer towns.
Now had the Legion been in charge they would have simply rounded them all up at once and executed them.Yes it may be wrong morally, by todays standards. But todays standards arent an luxurey people can afford, as demonstrated by the NCR.
This is a part where I can agree, in a post-apocalyptic wasteland, you dispatch the older brand of justice, HOWEVER, there's a big big fat juicy line between criminal punishment, and another in how you treat non-combatants. Again, the Legion dabbles in a lot of unecesary evils that are NOT needed to establish order, and keep control. Legalizing and encouraging rape and cannibalism being one, openly approving gutting people like fish for amusement is another. Executing elderly and sick people is another one. Forbidding children to have a childhood is another one.
Crucifying the criminals and non-criminals is another, for god sakes bro' CRUCIFYING PEOPLE. I agree that in a post-apocalyptic wasteland there are no resources to maintain a prison and thus criminals have to be executed, that doesn't mean we have to be animals about it and flay them alive, and wear their faces on our head like leatherface. Crucifixion is one of the most unnecesarily painful and most merciless forms of execution imaginable, its so barbaric and painful the romans had to invent a new word to express just how painful it is (Excruciating, which means "From the Cross")
A simple bullet to the head solves the criminal element, without reducing ourselves to raving savages.
Other places in the wasteland haven't taken such extreme measures and yet have become relatively safe havens to live in.
That goes more into what I said though, the courrier being some kind of messiah. One person leading an army of robots is basically a totalitarian dictatorship. if you take out the corriuer and put somebody with an evil disposition in there, then it could be a lot uglier than the Legion.
Well, if there was no courier, that would be something else, but the thing is, we're there, we can do something about it, we can either be a part of the problem, or be a part of the solution. And to me, the Legion is part of the problem, replacing an evil with another evil. Its like replacing Saddam with Kony. Come on........
I hope Im not being argumentative btw, I like to play devils advocate but people have told me it can be annoying Xp
Annoying? o_O da'hell? of course not dude, I love these debates, like the one I'm having with you or Thror. Its fun. =D
Post by
Gone
They can if people are willing to
. Look at New Canaan, there's lots of settlements where the world is actually managing to get back on its feet. A massive earthshattering cataclysm happened, ok, I still say that's no reason to forego our humanity and go feral. We can rebuild society if we actually give a damn.
The thing is though that most people are not willing to. Yes if everybody shared these ideals and were willing to be civil, then the Legion would have no place, and probably never would have come to power in the first place.
But thats just not the way people in Fallout are. For all the nice innocent civilians out there, there are just as many roaving gangs and raiders going around raping, pillaging, murdering, etc. And "normal" goverments like the NCR have utterly failed to keep them in check. Thats where the Legion comes in.
We can either accept that, or work to change that.
We can, but that kind of flys in the face of the games
theme
. War never changes. I mean yes people
can
change. But the fact is they dont (at least not in this game).
Again, the Legion dabbles in a lot of unecesary evils that are NOT needed to establish order, and keep control.
So the question that arises there, is does that outweigh the good that they do for civilization, big picture wise, by maintaining order, and if so by how much?
End of the day which are we better off with, the Legions harsh yet efficient brand of justice, along with all the problems that arise from their brutality? Or the NCRs softer approach, that spares the people the uneccisary brutality of the Legions laws, yet leaves them vaunerable to all the threats of the world (gangs, raiders, etc.)
Legalizing and encouraging rape
Like I said the treatment of women is the one really big thing that I have a problem with.
and cannibalism being one
This may sound weird, but I dont really have as big a problem with that. i mean yes its disgusting, but it happens other places in the wasteland as well. As long as their not forcing it on people, Im kinda meh about it. There are way worse things in Fallout than that, sick as it sounds.
openly approving gutting people like fish for amusement is another.
Theres a gladiator arena in NCR territory as well, it may not be sanctioned, but I still think their aware of it, It might not even really be illegal. Most of the people entered into the Legions arena are either criminals or people who sign up for it.
Executing elderly and sick people is another one
Thats one of the ones that I think is right on the line. I get the logic, that the sick or the elderly consume resources without being able to contribute, and ultimatly hurt the whole. But I find it kind of hard to say Im ok with it.
Forbidding children to have a childhood is another one.
That probably does them a favor. If your going to survive in Fallout, especially under the Legion, you have to grow up hard and tough.
And to me, the Legion is part of the problem, replacing an evil with another evil. Its like replacing Saddam with Kony. Come on........
The Legion would eventually die out after it served its purpose though. See I kind of see it like a purging fire. Let it burn away all the scum, the powder gangers, the fiends, the raiders. And once thats done it will likley fall, just as every other society like it did in history, to make room for something better.
Then
we can start to evolve back to what society once was.
The thing is though that we will never get there without something to impose order, for a time at least.
I think I just relised why its easier for me to accept the Legion than teh Dominion btw, even though the Legion is arguably more evil.
Edler Scrolls is medieval fantasy. That kind of brings out themes of optimism in the face of darkness, and overcominga dversity. So in that setting the Thalmore just seem like an uneccisary evil, a blight on hummanity that has to be overcome.
Fallout on the other hand is post apocalyptic. And a major theme of that is the devolution of hummanity, and the depths that people wind up having to sink to in order to survive. So to me the Legion seems easier to empathise with, as apposed to the Thalmore that just seem like this pure evil, alien force out to destroy everything.
Post by
588688
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
EdantheDwarf
Story time!
Me happily running around whiterun doing my own little things, make a new set of glass armor (O shiny) go up to the keep to enchant it. Step in there and everyone tries to kill me, reload to check if I have a bounty on my head. Nope. My be it was me walking in there with my weapons drawn, so try again, nope they are still trying to kill me. humm need to think on this. My idea is just keep trying earlier saves until they stop trying to kill me.
Edit: to fix it I got found stealing and severed jail time, somehow it worked and I can now enchant again.
Post by
557473
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Gone
I thought they said they wouldnt be pulling this bull#$%^ with Skyrim. Only releasing substancial DLC in bundles. They should have just saved this feature and added it on to the next real expansion. This is just a blatant attempt to suck more money out of people.
Ill buy the house all right, and adopt some kids... THEN ILL LOCK THEM AND MY WIFE, STEWARD, AND BARD INSIDE AND BURN THE WHOLE DAMN THING DOWN. HOWS THAT FOR HEARTHFIRE BETHESDA?
EDIT: In case anybody didnt pick it up my ire over this comes from two things. 1) this is just a blatant attempt to suck more money out of people. And 2) They still havnt released the PS3 Dawnguard.
Post by
Rankkor
ohh great, another period of time treating non-xbox users like second class citizens as well. Way to lose points with yours fans bethesda.
Any company that does this is despicable. At least bioware mended their ways and they always release games and DLCs on all platforms at the same time (though with KOTOR, Jade Empire, and Mass Effect 1 they made us PC users wait A LOT)
Plus, a DLC that is more or less The Sims? I agree with ryja, this is stuff that should be added to a full blown expansion pack, not a stupid DLC.
>_> where are gaming companies going?
And as far as adopting children goes: Either add ORC children or gtfo. I'm not intrested in adopting any weakling pink-skinned mongrels. My ORC barbarian/ninja/vampire/archer/necromancer will only raise a descendant of Malacath.
Post by
ElhonnaDS
There are already sooooo many housing mods in Skyrim- lol.
Post by
Gone
ohh great, another period of time treating non-xbox users like second class citizens as well. Way to lose points with yours fans bethesda.
Cant PC users mod most of this stuff anyway?
Just be glad you dont own a PS3, Bethesda hasnt even announced a date their getting Dawnguard yet :/
Post by
Rankkor
ohh great, another period of time treating non-xbox users like second class citizens as well. Way to lose points with yours fans bethesda.
Cant PC users mod most of this stuff anyway?
Just be glad you dont own a PS3, Bethesda hasnt even announced a date their getting Dawnguard yet :/
well, you can download a billion and one houses made with the creation kit, but the thing is: I tried to use it, and that thing isn't exactly what I'd call "User Friendly". Creating those homes is pretty darn hard, this one seems a lot more user friendly.
Plus I still think its sorta mean that they allow you to adopt children, yet all the children in the game are human. Nords specifically. There are some breton (Babette) Imperial (Aventus) and even Redguard children, but they're VERY few. And absolutely zero orc/kahjit/elven children anywhere.
Post by
Thror
Fable 3 DLC. I went there. :D :D :D
Post by
Rankkor
Fable 3 DLC. I went there. :D :D :D
ohhh you had to go there.......... dammit, you're right.
Ohh well, at least in skyrim you can't fart on people's faces.
yet
Post Reply
You are not logged in. Please
log in
to post a reply or
register
if you don't already have an account.