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Shred VS Rake considering high levels of ArP
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Post by
174429
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109094
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Post by
Aadramelekh
Stacking more agility will further increase Rake damage (due to Attack Power gained).
Anyway there is no real debate along the lines of
Rake vs Shred
, since Rake should always be ticking anyway. Probably some people might think that it would be more effective to use Rake only before applying the first Rip and then continue only with Shredding for CP generation, given a high enough level of Armor Penetration. The thing is, Rake does very high damage, which is unmitigated by armor, and usually no more than three Shreds are necessary per Rip cycle (excluding exceptions such as Clearcasting and the possibility of using Ferocious Bite) to maximize the Glyph of Shred effect (up to 3 extra Rip ticks). Therefore Rake is very much worth refreshing every time it expires.
Considering an average level of 9000 AP raid buffed, the base damage these two skills would be:
Rake
: 1090 application, plus 2781 damage over 9 seconds.
Shred
: 698 * 2.25 + 742.5 = 2313 damage
Now considering all talent related modifiers (Savage Fury, Naturalist, Rend and Tear and the Mangle/Trauma buff to bleed damage and Shred) we have the following final results (considering Mangle/Trauma always active):
Rake:
1090*1.2*1.1*1.3 = 1870 application, plus 4772 damage over 9 seconds. Total: 6642 damage over 9 seconds (~190 DPE)
Shred:
2313*1.1*1.3*1.2 = 3969 damage (94.5 DPE) - and this is before damage reduction from armor. 39% is the full DR of a raid boss against a lvl 80 player. Therefore Shred does only 2421 damage on a fully armored raid boss.
However, during a ArP proc from grim toll / Mjolnir Runestone i think shred would come out in front by a fair marginNot really. In fact a HUGE amount of ArP would be necessary for Shred to even be
equal
to Rake regarding the damage over time component.
If we are to compare Shred and Rake damage, we should take the
TIME
factor into account. Rake does 6642 damage in 9 seconds. Those 9 seconds also provide enough energy for two Shreds. So the effective base Shred damage over 9 seconds is 7938 (4842 after damage reduction). The difference is 1800 damage, which means ~37% of 4842. So a 37% damage increase from ArP is necessary to boost Shred to the same damage over time effect as Rake.
Taking a look at
THIS
page, we can find that in order to attain a ~38% damage increase from ArP against a raid boss, about 970 ArP rating (~79% Armor Penetration) would be necessary. In fact we have to consider the ArP cap formula related to mob level (which, in short, says that a raid boss cannot be taken under ~1750 armor value no matter how much ArP is brought against it). With Sunder Armor + Faerie Fire effects applying before player's own ArP, the ~10650 armor of a raid boss would be reduced to ~1750 using SA+FF+79% player ArP. Which is pretty much the ArP cap limit versus lvl 83 mobs.
Using
the best ArP gear we can find in game so far
, we could make a set that provides 970 passive ArP (18 sockets, using BS and JC as professions for 2 x extra sockets and 3 x 27ArP gems). This is almost exactly the ArP cap and also makes trinkets like Mjolnir Runestone or Grim Toll obsolete (say hello to trinkets like
Wrathstone
).
Under these conditions, probably Rake would become obsolete as long as Rip (or in fact any other bleed effect) is always present on the target. And also Ferocious Bite (with Feral Aggression talent) would become a Top3 damage dealer compared to its current status. Clearcasting (free Shred FTW) would further advocate this huge ArP amount.
Final note: such a gear setup would provide significantly lower critical strike chance than an agility based setup. Due to low crit rate, CPs would probably be just enough to maintain a standard cycle (Shred as CP builder and Savage Roar / Rip as finishers) and only rarely allow for extra Ferocious Bites.
Post by
174429
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Post by
Aadramelekh
having 1267 ArP (the cap).False. Do some research on Armor Penetration cap. A level 83 raid boss
CAN NOT
be taken under ~1750 armor, no matter how much Armor Penetration effects work on it. So when we talk about raid environment, Sunder Armor + Faerie Fire + ~79% ArP from player's gear will reach that 1750 armor cap. In other words, there's no way to take a raid boss under ~10% damage reduction (down from the initial 39% it has from its armor).
This is based onThe formula for the Armor Penetration cap can be simplified to ArPcap = (935/6)*x + y/3 -44335/6, where x is the target level and y the target armor. Then effArmor = targetArmor - ArP * min{ targetArmor, ArPcap} as explained above, with the Armor Penetration ArP of your character. ArP is given, lately changed in 3.1.2, by the formula ArP = min{ 1,(Sum ArPcontributions)%}.
This basically says that a lvl 83 target cannot be brought under ~1700 or so armor (I used the 1750 value to round things up), no matter how much ArP effects stack against it.
Also what does time have to do with it?It has everything to do with it. If you don't take the time factor into account and the recurrence of critical hits / clearcasting states (which basically mean free extra CPs / damage), you end up comparing an instant ability which is reduced by armor (Shred, 42 energy cost) and one damage over time ability which completely ignores armor (Rake, 35 energy cost). The DPE you are talking about is closely related to the time factor, since
it takes time for energy to regenerate
and thus be available for producing abilities. A simple static comparison between such abilities does not reflect the reality.
Taking numbers out of your stomach based on a hunch can't be as accurate as mathematical based deduction.
Post by
310761
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Post by
Aadramelekh
well and don´t forget that with 2xT8 you will really want rake ticking on target for more clearcasts...
Correct. A compelling argument for using Rake even if Shred is boosted by that much ArP. Free Shreds at that ArP level is an excellent DPS boost.
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174429
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Aadramelekh
A whole thread about me?No.
Life is pain...
And the you die.
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Post by
Bazar
Just skimmed the conversation, but i'm going to point out that rake is 8 energy cheaper.
Even if shred matched the dpe value of rake, it wouldn't have the same cp generation.
Over the course of 63 seconds, it'll be 56 energy that could of been used on more CP generation. (its not 56 more energy for damage, thats not what i'm saying)
if we use that energy on shred (since we already assume rake is up 100% of the time), with a 50% crit rate, its a difference of 2 cp per minute.
7 minute long boss fight, thats 14 additional cp points you gain making use of rake. Make of it what you will.
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144872
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