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Shamanism within the horde in cataclysm
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Post by
taurenmoo812
Something I was thinking when visiting my shaman trainer today in grommash hold (my 2 mains are orc shaman and tauren druid) about the presence of shamans and there importance within the horde now, and to come.
Thrall is the shamanistic leader of the horde. Because of him, shamanism was brought back into the orcs lives and helped them regain there spirital nature that was lost. This to helped a great deal by the trolls and the tauren that joined them, and so much of the hordes culture (3/5) revolves around shamanism as its spirital backbone. And because Thrall is a shaman himself, he's seen to it shamans have a strong place within his rule.
Now, forward to cataclysm. Garrosh taking command of the horde. He is not a shaman, neither has he seemed to show any intrest in the shamanistic ways. Even warriors of the horde have found great respect for the shamans in what they give to the horde, something they can't touch upon deeply but know is a good thing.
Now, although shamans will have a strong role in whats to come in cataclysm, with the upheaval of the elemental lords, I also have this feeling with Garrosh imposing his war like state within the horde, he would likely see shamans are a weaker element, and much like the trolls, blood elves and forsaken, throw them from the central part of orgrimmar. And well they will be part of the horde still, it will be of a diminished capacity. Garrosh would probably not see the importance of shamans and just regard them as 'healers' to heal warriors after a battle.
Edit: On a side note, the reason the orcs first lost there shamanism on draenor was because they were first manipulated by kil'jaeden to murder the draenei, and doing so the spirits were lost to them.
Post by
389776
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
I don't know... we know that the Goblins are learning shamanism(possibly because of Thrall), but I could really see most of them heading north with the True Warchief to deal with the Fire Lords and Ragnaros, same as most of the high ranking Druids.
Post by
taurenmoo812
I don't know... we know that the Goblins are learning shamanism(possibly because of Thrall), but I could really see most of them heading north with the True Warchief to deal with the Fire Lords and Ragnaros, same as most of the high ranking Druids.
Hee, thats awesome how you said true warchief :)
And yeah, weither kicked from the heart of orgrimmar or them leaving it to follow Thrall and help battle the raging elements, I still think there be a devide in the presence of shamans within it through cataclysm.
shamans will still have as great a role or greater in cataclysm
because even though garrosh is stupid hes not stupid enough
to just not support such a great asset to the horde
Honestly though, if the rumors are all true, he's already shown how stupid he is in not giving support and even devide the horde with the trolls, blood elves and forsaken in him regarding them as 'weak'.
Post by
HiVolt
I'm not sure if I would agree with your overall assessment. Because he shows no interest in the ways of shamanism doesn't necessarily mean that he doesn't think highly of the shamanism within the Horde. As you said, the Shaman are the main
spiritual
leaders of the Orcs. This means, that they exist for guidance and insight, rather than leadership.
Before Thrall, no shaman had ever been made a Chieftain or the Warchief within the Horde. Were it not for Doomhammer's death, and for the necessity of the Orcs to return to shamanism, we may never have had that. This makes Thrall the exception to the rule, where Garrosh
is
the rule.
Before Thrall, we had leaders among the Horde like Doomhammer, Durotan, Blackhand, Grom, etc.-- all of which were warriors. But, each of them understood the necessity of the Shaman within the Horde. Think about this: If Ner'zhul was not a shaman, but a warrior, would the rest of the clan Chieftains been so quick to follow his wisdom?
I have a feeling that Garrosh will understand the necessity of shamanism, just like every warrior-leader that came before him. Now, this could be for good (Drek'thar and Durotan) or for bad (Ner'zhul and the Old Horde), we just need to wait and see what it brings.
Post by
Skreeran
Of course, he may grow to dislike the shaman when they disagree with his decisions. If that happens, he could certainly "punish" them by reducing their influence in the Horde.
Post by
HiVolt
Of course, he may grow to dislike the shaman when they disagree with his decisions. If that happens, he could certainly "punish" them by reducing their influence in the Horde.
I don't think that the Warchief would have grounds to punish them based solely on dislike. If he were to punish them simply for dislike and disagreement, the rest of the Horde might take it as an offense, and Garrosh would lose favor, even among his closest commanders and compatriots. Take Durotan and Drek'thar in Rise of the Horde as an example (and I'm not saying Garrosh is like Durotan, just hear me out).
Durotan and Drek'thar disagree on many things throughout Rise of the Horde, but Durotan does not truly punish the Shaman of his clan for it. He likely does not, in order to keep the peace between him, his clan, and the rest of the Horde. To punish a Shaman for relaying the thoughts of the spirits to a Chieftain is to deny the ancestors of their wisdom, something that no Orc, especially a Mag'har, would stand for.
Now, this does not mean that the Warchief could never punish the Shaman. If they were to act directly against the Warchief, he could punish them. In the Horde, the Will of the Warchief trumps all. This does not mean that the Warchief has leave to do whatever he or she wishes. It means, that in any situation where the Warchief must lead his or her people, such as in battle, his or her order is followed above all else. These situations would call upon the idea that the Warchief has listened to his or her advisers and to the Shaman, and come up with what he or she thinks is the best course of action.
If any were to directly violate this course of action, without formally challenging the Warchief on the matter (through Mak'gora), it would be considered a treasonous act.
Post by
Skreeran
But look at what Gul'dan did to the shaman and the Frostwolf clan when he was "Warchief?"
You don't think Garrosh could do the same thing?
Post by
HiVolt
But look at what Gul'dan did to the shaman and the Frostwolf clan when he was "Warchief?"
You don't think Garrosh could do the same thing?
The only difference is, Gul'dan was at that time, the spiritual leader of the Horde, and not the Warchief. Garrosh will only be the Warchief and not the Elder Shaman.
Post by
Skreeran
Couldn't Garrosh appoint a "spiritual leader" to speak to the general masses against the word of the shaman who opposed him?
He could basically tell the Horde who were the good shaman and bad shaman. Think of how Henry VIII started the Church of England for his own purposes.
Post by
HiVolt
Couldn't Garrosh appoint a "spiritual leader" to speak to the general masses against the word of the shaman who opposed him?
He could basically tell the Horde who were the good shaman and bad shaman. Think of how Henry VIII started the Church of England for his own purposes.
Oh yeah, I'm sure he could. But then he wouldn't be punishing the Shaman, he'd be taking only the advice that he wants, by catering to the Shaman that adhere to his plans and ideas, and thus promote them through it.
I didn't say that there weren't ways to work around it, or that him listening to the Shaman can only bring good to the Horde. Spiritual leadership is definitely a tool that can be used for one's own gain.
As I said before, it's just a matter of waiting to see what Garrosh brings in his leadership. Personally, I think you hit the nail on the head with your assessment here, but we don't know yet.
Even in this situation, the Shaman play an integral part in the Horde, no matter the circumstance.
Post by
Rankkor
To punish a Shaman for relaying the thoughts of the spirits to a Chieftain is to deny the ancestors of their wisdom, something that no Orc, especially a Mag'har, would stand for.
rite there you nailed this bro'
orcs and shamanism are as entangled as draenei are to light.
for orcs to disregard shamans would be like draenei disregarding vindicators.
shamans are more than just elemental manipulators. this is just the wow-side of shamanism
but the TRUE branch and prupose of a shaman is to act as a conduict to the spirit world, to have the wisdom of both the spirits of the world, and the ancestors of the orc race.
no orc, and this is double true for mag'har, none whatsoever would disregard the words of their ancestors.
think about garrosh for example, if somehow greatmother geyah sent a message to him, he would ignore her?
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(now that I think of it, I would had laughed to death if on the ulduar trailer garrosh goes all like "I KNEW I SMELLED THE STENCH OF ALLIANCE PIGS" and thrall goes "Garrosh controll yourself" and then just like that the ghost of greatmother geyah shows up and says "garrosh..... (tapping her ghost foot) be a dear and behave like a good boy, please your greatmother and be nice to the humans" and garrosh goes all like "BUT THEY ARE OUR---" and geyah says "garrosh-------- (tapping her foot faster)"
"I....... yes."
"yes what?"
"yes ma'am"
now that's a classic material rite there :P)
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orcs survive and live on by trusting the words of their ancestors, and among them no figure has more respect than the shamans.
heck brox when he saw tyrande's healing powers called her a shaman too.
shamanism it's a biggie to the horde (makes me wonder why no shaman trainers are on silvermoon or undercity)
I believe that shamanism will play a large role on cataclysm, heck, it may even be that fine line that will separate garrosh from a warchief to a genocidal freakshow.
Post by
Skreeran
The problem is: a), the orcs can no longer hear their ancestors, so really Garrosh doesn't have to listen to them, and b), Garrosh doesn't listen to Thrall, who is not only a shaman, but his Warchief. He seems like the kind of guy who, if he is given advice he doesn't like, would just replace his advisor with someone who says things he likes.
Post by
184848
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
451455
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rankkor
na, not really, this started with the influence shamans will have under the horde in cataclysm and how garrosh will use or not use them.
somehow along the way this deviated into a Garrosh sucks thread sadly :S
urg, this wait is a real killer, I want blizz to show exactly how they plan to fix garrosh to be a less hateable guy, because the very thought of having current slime garrosh as warchief is less than pleasant.
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