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Reckoning SoC Spec... "Fun Spec BG" Not Arena lol
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Post by
444125
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Squishalot
I reckon you're better off with a Prot DPS spec like this:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#sZVGxhMzghsIufdVf0dbc:RzLczM
Post by
Wikipedia
Divine Storm is better then Reckoning, HotR is better then the 3% dmg increase.
So both fail in terms of PvP, since burst is the only thing that matter in PvP
Post by
Dunsinane
It's Reckadin.
It's been proposed dozens of times.
It still stinks for all purposes.
Post by
Squishalot
It's Reckadin.
It's been proposed dozens of times.
It still stinks for all purposes.
You never know. As they introduce more damage scaling for melee attacks (eg, multi-target SoC), a Reckoning spec becomes more effective.
But yes, at the moment, I believe it still stinks.
A Reckoning-based Prot DPS spec, with the block set proposed by Kenyon though... you'd have some pretty nice uptime on Reckoning...
Post by
Dunsinane
It's Reckadin.
It's been proposed dozens of times.
It still stinks for all purposes.
You never know.
Yes, we can know. Fairly easily. Simple spreadsheets and napkin math alone make it clear that Reckoning is inferior to Divine Storm in dps value. And that's ignoring the fact that you actually have to be getting hit for Reckoning to work, along with some fairly significant lost damage bonuses in the Ret tree proposed.
As they introduce more damage scaling for melee attacks (eg, multi-target SoC), a Reckoning spec becomes more effective.
But yes, at the moment, I believe it still stinks.
A Reckoning-based Prot DPS spec, with the block set proposed by Kenyon though... you'd have some pretty nice uptime on Reckoning...
Uptime on Reckoning is dependent on getting hit - i.e. the number of unavoided incoming attacks. Block rating and value do precisely zilch for Reckoning uptime.
Post by
444125
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Squishalot
Simple spreadsheets and napkin math alone make it clear that Reckoning is inferior to Divine Storm in dps value.
Then you missed the rest of the paragraph:
As they introduce more damage scaling for melee attacks (eg, multi-target SoC), a Reckoning spec becomes more effective.
Divine Storm, using a 2.5sec 1-hander, is worth 27.5% melee DPS, * 4 targets. It doesn't proc extra SoC, so it only gets the benefit of old SoC.
Thus, if you do 100 damage from melee, you'll do, over 10 secs:
400 dmg from Melee
132 dmg from SoC (melee)
440 dmg from Divine Storm (4 targets @ 110% melee damage)
132 dmg from SoC (DS)
Total:
Compared to new SoC:
400 dmg from Melee
396 dmg from SoC (melee)
440 dmg from Divine Storm
132 dmg from SoC
Compare to Reckoning Spec - according to svrive, you get 49% uptime with 5/5 reckoning and 4 people attacking you every 2 seconds.
400 * 1.49 = 596 dmg from Melee
396 * 1.49 = 590 dmg from SoC (melee)
So that's 1368 damage (from DS) vs 1186 damage from Reckoning. Against 3 people, it's 1216 damage using DS vs 1106 damage from Reckoning. That's only a 10%, and that's using the somewhat dubious assumptions of 50% avoidance, and 2 second attack speeds - in reality, Reckoning will proc a lot more, due to lower avoidance and proc'ing off abilities.
If you want to compare 1 hander vs 2 hander, or Ret vs Prot, that's an entirely different ball-game, and the trade-offs between sustained damage, burst, and survivability. That's not as simple as glancing at a spreadsheet or doing napkin math.
(Though for the record, I use envelopes - they don't tear as easily.)
Edit:
Uptime on Reckoning is dependent on getting hit - i.e. the number of unavoided incoming attacks. Block rating and value do precisely zilch for Reckoning uptime.
For some reason, I had the impression that Reckoning proc'd on blocks too, though I'm not sure why I thought that... Has there been a change I haven't followed?
Post by
Dunsinane
Simple spreadsheets and napkin math alone make it clear that Reckoning is inferior to Divine Storm in dps value
Then you missed the rest of the paragraph:
No, I'll go with "You missed the point I was addressing". You're claiming that we cannot be sure of these things ("You never know"). I'm stating that that assertion is ludicrous because these things are easy to test.
Why on earth are you calculating Divine Storm with a one hander? Your calculations are skewed because his dps suffers massively in the absence of a two hander, as SoComm and Crusader Strike scale with weapon damage.
Bad assumptions lead to irrelevant calculations. The first spec presented is NOT built around 1H+shield and would be inferior dps to a standard tanking build with Reckoning if it were so geared. The second one is just terrible, period.
Uptime on Reckoning is dependent on getting hit - i.e. the number of unavoided incoming attacks. Block rating and value do precisely zilch for Reckoning uptime.
For some reason, I had the impression that Reckoning proc'd on blocks too, though I'm not sure why I thought that... Has there been a change I haven't followed?
It does, but it's irrelevant given the combat table.
Miss - does not proc Reckoning
Dodge - does not proc Reckoning
Parry - does not proc Reckoning
Block - can proc Reckoning
Crit - can proc Reckoning
Crushing - can proc Reckoning
Hit - can proc Reckoning
Adding more block rating only pushes things off of the table that already can proc Reckoning. In terms of uptime, Reckoning doesn't care whether you're blocking an attack or taking a normal hit. Both are the same.
Post by
faia
reckadin did die when reckon got overhaul
"sigh" miss the 99 stacking reckon then hit a target....and dont care what it is it did die:P
Post by
svirve
Compare to Reckoning Spec - according to svrive, you get 49% uptime with 5/5 reckoning and 4 people attacking you every 2 seconds.
Just have to add something to this.
This is with 50% avoidance. You'll most probably have far less in a PvP situation.
So expect a higher uptime than 49% with 4 people attacking you from the front/sides/behind.
Also players usually attack more often than every 2 sec (GCDs being 1.5 sec) ;p
The spec isn't viable what so ever.
Though it might be a fun thing to play around with, to each his own.
Post by
Squishalot
Adding more block rating only pushes things off of the table that already can proc Reckoning. In terms of uptime, Reckoning doesn't care whether you're blocking an attack or taking a normal hit. Both are the same.
Fair point. In that case, I'll rephrase my original point, and point out that you'll get a) decent uptime on Reckoning, and b) awesome survivability, due to your 50% avoidance and high BV mitigation.
Why on earth are you calculating Divine Storm with a one hander? Your calculations are skewed because his dps suffers massively in the absence of a two hander, as SoComm and Crusader Strike scale with weapon damage.
Bad assumptions lead to irrelevant calculations. The first spec presented is NOT built around 1H+shield and would be inferior dps to a standard tanking build with Reckoning if it were so geared. The second one is just terrible, period.
Because I already know that removing DS in a two-hander spec for Reckoning doesn't pay off, due to the napkin math. Which is why I volunteered a better Prot-based spec that doesn't sacrifice offensive abilities just for the sake of taking up Reckoning. The only bad assumption that I see is your assumption that Reckadin = Ret.
As far as I'm aware, you haven't gone to the hassle of comparing a two-hander cookie cutter Ret spec up against a one-hander Prot DPS spec. You can't do that with some napkin math. As far as I'm concerned, there is no such thing as a viable Ret-heavy Reckoning spec. There is such thing as a viable Prot-heavy Reckoning spec. Irrespective of what the OP has said, I'm challenging your assertion that a Reckadin 'still stinks for all purposes', based on the fact that you're only looking at the strange concept of a Ret-Reckadin which can only use 50-75% of the benefit each proc, due to slow weapon speeds, and sacrificing key offensive abilities in your spec for the sake of picking up Reckoning.
A Prot-Reckadin sacrifices low-tier defensive abilities for the Reckoning burst. You don't give up any of your key burst abilities like Avenger's Shield, Hammer of the Righteous, or Shield of Righteousness.
So frankly, your conclusion is what stinks, because you don't know how to build a Reckadin properly!
Post by
89241
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Dunsinane
Adding more block rating only pushes things off of the table that already can proc Reckoning. In terms of uptime, Reckoning doesn't care whether you're blocking an attack or taking a normal hit. Both are the same.
Fair point. In that case, I'll rephrase my original point, and point out that you'll get a) decent uptime on Reckoning, and b) awesome survivability, due to your 50% avoidance and high BV mitigation.
Which is true, although all that melee avoidance does lower Reckoning uptime. At this point, you aren't discussing Reckadin, you're discussing Prot PvP, so it really isn't relevant to the original build proposed.
Why on earth are you calculating Divine Storm with a one hander? Your calculations are skewed because his dps suffers massively in the absence of a two hander, as SoComm and Crusader Strike scale with weapon damage.
Bad assumptions lead to irrelevant calculations. The first spec presented is NOT built around 1H+shield and would be inferior dps to a standard tanking build with Reckoning if it were so geared. The second one is just terrible, period.
Because I already know that removing DS in a two-hander spec for Reckoning doesn't pay off, due to the napkin math. Which is why I volunteered a better Prot-based spec that doesn't sacrifice offensive abilities just for the sake of taking up Reckoning. The only bad assumption that I see is your assumption that Reckadin = Ret.
Given your entire post it's clear that you don't have a clue about what a Reckadin is.
Reckadin **IS** a Retribution build
. It is a Ret-based build which has gone deep enough into Prot to get Reckoning at the expense of deeper talents in Ret. Reckadin is
not
any random build that happens to include Reckoning, any more than Rets that have taken SotP and Divine Strength are now Holy/Prot Paladins. There is no such thing as a "Prot-Reckadin".
Short version for keeping up with the -adin names. If it is centered on a tree or a role, then that is the dominant tree in the build (Holydin, Healadin, Protadin, Tankadin, Retadin). If it is centered on a talent, that talent is the focus of going down that particular tree in conjunction with specializing in another (Reckadin, Sheathadin, Shockadin).
The original version back in Vanilla WoW was 0/25/26, when Reckoning still built up charges upon receiving a crit. It relied on a slow 2H weapon for massive burst on release. The failed BC versions - with the weakened talent - were 0/25/36. The version proposed by the OP is 0/27/44 and follows the same plan and pattern. Hence, it is a Reckadin build. The build that you proposed in the second post does not follow that plan or pattern, and is therefore NOT a Reckadin build.
As far as I'm aware, you haven't gone to the hassle of comparing a two-hander cookie cutter Ret spec up against a one-hander Prot DPS spec. You can't do that with some napkin math.
Nor do I need to. Again, the topic is Reckadin, not Prot PvP. Either cookie cutter Ret PvP or cookie cutter Prot PvP will be dramatically superior to Reckadin in output (and to a more variable extent, in survivability). I can demonstrate that by simply showing the opportunity costs for the given split against what's available deeper in the trees.
Post by
Dunsinane
While everyone is bashing this, think of cataclysm. If talents stay the same for even a day after release, some rets are going to get reckoning and it will destroy. that is all
They won't be. Just like BC and WotLK, the talent tree changes will be in place a month or more before the expansion hits.
Post by
Squishalot
*sigh* Times change, mate. If that's how you want to define a Reckadin, then yes, it sucks. But fact of the matter is, Reckoning is not necessarily the 'crappy talent that n00bs spec into' that we've always lampooned in every "rate my spec!" thread.
A Shockadin has been recently been defined as a build that specs moderately into Holy to get Holy Shock, and moderately into Ret to get Art of War. What's to stop us from considering a Holy Shock build that specs into Prot? And why wouldn't you call it a Shockadin, when you would use it
in exactly the same way, for exactly the same purpose
?
And again, as I said, the original builds proposed sucked. But that doesn't mean that every build that uses Reckoning and SoC is a bad idea. The thread is about a Reckoning SoC spec, not a Reckadin. Read the bloody title. You're the one who turned it into a f'ing Reckadin thread.
P.S. Yes, I'm $%^&ed off, because you're derailing the damn thread into something that it doesn't need to be. Let the idea flow and develop, just like any good thread should. If the original idea is bad, say it's bad, and suggest something better. If someone suggests something better, assess that, rather than point at the original one and go "no, it's bad, it's bad!". Please note - the second build posted was a deep Prot spec, not a 'Reckadin' spec by your definition.
Post by
Dunsinane
*sigh* Times change, mate.
*sigh* Here we go again. Another "Dunsinane's a meanie, so I'll try desperately to nitpick and project" post.
If that's how you want to define a Reckadin, then yes, it sucks.
Defining something in consistent terms so that people actually can understand what's being discussed? Heaven forbid. I should change the definitions around to suit whatever argument I'm making and hope no one notices.
But fact of the matter is, Reckoning is not necessarily the 'crappy talent that n00bs spec into' that we've always lampooned in every "rate my spec!" thread.
You may have lampooned people for it, I don't know. I haven't. My position prior to 3.2 was "inferior tanking talent, good leveling and grinding talent". Now it's "Low end threat talent, useful as filler if you want a max threat spec, still good for leveling and grinding."
A Shockadin has been recently been defined as a build that specs moderately into Holy to get Holy Shock, and moderately into Ret to get Art of War. What's to stop us from considering a Holy Shock build that specs into Prot? And why wouldn't you call it a Shockadin, when you would use it
in exactly the same way, for exactly the same purpose
?
If you were to take an explicitly described brief overview as an in-depth analysis, you could. The defining talent in a Shockadin build is Holy Shock, and the build existed before Art of War was even on the drawing board (Holy Shock/Sanctity Aura was the combination - 30/0/21 if I'm remembering correctly). Speccing into Prot wouldn't keep the same purpose, however, as the low level Prot talents don't provide significant increases to damage and crit healing and Shockadins are designed around being healers with offensive burst potential. Instead you'd have a healer with stronger mitigation abilities that is harder to kill.
And again, as I said, the original builds proposed sucked.
A point of agreement.
But that doesn't mean that every build that uses Reckoning and SoC is a bad idea. The thread is about a Reckoning SoC spec, not a Reckadin. Read the bloody title. You're the one who turned it into a f'ing Reckadin thread.
I haven't asserted that every build that uses Reckoning and SoC is a bad idea.
No, it isn't about any Reckoning/SoC spec. It's about the builds proposed by the OP, with the focus having settled on 0/27/44
"
"Fun Spec BG" Not arena lol
- the thread title doesn't say anything about what you're claiming. Just the opposite, in fact, as you're the one steering away from the original poster's suggestion
I'm calling a spade a spade. Heaven forbid.
P.S. Yes, I'm $%^&ed off, because you're derailing the damn thread into something that it doesn't need to be.
I'm derailing the thread by pointing out flaws in your assertions ("We can't know"), challenging your assumptions (Divine Storm with a 1H weapon? Of course that's not going to be ideal), clarifying points about an important talent in the build (Reckoning uptime vis-a-vis block chance) and attempting to keep the focus on the actual topic (the OPs proposed build) rather than randomly spinning off on your personal pet project?
Let the idea flow and develop, just like any good thread should. If the original idea is bad, say it's bad, and suggest something better.
Terribly sorry. I'd thought I had said it was bad, and there are more than enough threads providing good PvP specs that I shouldn't really need to recite the mantra "read the stickies for good builds".
If someone suggests something better, assess that, rather than point at the original one and go "no, it's bad, it's bad!".
Why would I automatically choose not to address the original poster's position in favor of your own? Again, there are massive threads on Prot PvP builds if I want to discuss those... and aren't you the one who claims to be objecting to thread hijacking?
Please note - the second build posted was a deep Prot spec, not a 'Reckadin' spec by your definition.
True. The second spec by the OP is not a Reckadin spec. Not only is it deep Prot, it doesn't have Reckoning. So a brief discussion of it - it stinks. It can't heal well. It has no instant strikes. It has no burst, as not even ShoR has been boosted in the absence of Redoubt. No TbtL and no Improved Judgements just make the ability to do damage more pathetic. It's a pile of semi-squishy hit points that will just last a little longer than most while not being able to fight back against anything in PvP.
Post by
444125
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
faia
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xhgvouRprw
just wanted to let people let see the time it did shine^^
Post by
Squishalot
No, it isn't about any Reckoning/SoC spec. It's about the builds proposed by the OP, with the focus having settled on 0/27/44
""Fun Spec BG" Not arena lol - the thread title doesn't say anything about what you're claiming. Just the opposite, in fact, as you're the one steering away from the original poster's suggestion
Thread title:
"Reckoning SoC spec... "Fun Spec BG" Not Arena lol"
No, it's not about any Reckoning / SoC spec at all, goodness no.
Any "Need Retribution Help" isn't about a Ret spec, no, it's all about an OP's suboptimal spec. Not about providing an optimal Retribution spec.
Heaven forbid that we consider whether a Prot-Sheathadin is better than a Holy-Sheathadin or not, if the OP only gave us one or the other. After all, taking your attitude, sheathadins still stink for all purposes, irrespective of how they're built.
I give up, this isn't going anywhere, thanks to some fairly closed minded thinking on your part.
Edit: Normally, you're fairly level-headed and open about things, so let me say quickly, this debate isn't personal. But I fail to see why you're taking such a close-minded view of this particular topic, especially in view of the blatant contradiction in what you're saying above.
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