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Re-thinking red sockets
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Post by
Sakkura
No! The traditional definition of EH is to *not* include block because block does not have 100% uptime. Your shield block skill is on cool down in a worst case scenario, right? Right.
Wrong. If you have combined avoidance and shield block chances of over 100% (after diminishing returns and level difference), then you will always block the hits that you do not avoid, regardless of whether the shield block ability is up or not. Then you can add your basic shield block value to your EH, since it will not be bypassed even in a worst case scenario (though there are some rare exceptions).
Post by
303745
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
303745
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
marklartank
When we are talking about multiple small hits, my thinking was that armor would be better because my health loss rate is *slowed*
this is right, but it's the same reason why it's good for big hits. it is a misunderstading to see it as more effective for small hits.
i'm not a fan of the mug because i expect two things out of my trinkets - a passive effect and a use (or proc). the black heart is not my favorite trinket because of it's stam - it's the ridiculously
OP proc
that makes it so good. it's especially good on a fight like gormoc, which negates somewhat the internal CD.
the black heart gives me EH (through stam) passively and a huge EH proc (through armor)
the badge trinket gives me EH (through armor) passively and a huge avoidance use effect
the ignis and yogg trinkets gives me EH (through stam) and avoidance use effects.
the brewfest mugs give me EH (through stam) passively and NOTHING!
the NOTHING is the part i don't like about it. granted, it's a good choice for new tanks and those who've leveled or started raiding since toc has been out. but i have both brewfest mugs and i've never found a fight i like them for.
Post by
Sakkura
Why do you keep saying I am wrong? *you* are wrong.
What tank has passive block over 50%? or even 40% for that matter? A pally maybe? .. but this is a warrior forum. I think you'd be sacrificing alot of avoidance and stamina stats to reach that amount of passive block... so what's the point? soloing lvl 60 dungeons?
The EH formula I posted earlier is the one that is typically used as a metric for tank survival. If you want to factor in avoidance and block mitigation have at it, but then you are getting into some probability distributions rather then a fixed number and you need to show it for various assumed boss hit amounts (60k, 50k, 40k, etc.)
Hypatia has an interesting thread at tankspot about combining EH (as I have defined it) with total avoidance and comes up with something called Burst Time -- basically how much time (measured in average number of boss hits) you have until you're killed. It accounts for those unlucky bursts of no avoidance. It was written pre-Wrath before diminishing returns came along but the metric still should work for comparing the relative value of EH versus avoidance stat upgrades. It kinda shows that balance is a good thing in general, though some fights favor EH more and others Avoidance more.
How am I wrong in that having a 100% combined avoidance and block chance means you can count on your block value to be applied? Unless you're tanking with your ass or get stunned, it's always applied, and thus counts toward your EH. There is no probability involved, it's a
sure thing
.
And yeah I do wonder what tank has that much block. Especially with stuff like Anub hard mode in the game...
Post by
303745
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Sakkura
Your *typical* tank has nowhere near "unhittable" status of 102.4% combined avoidance and block.
Ah, and the answer lies in what you wrote yourself. The idea behind EH was to have a single number that gave you some idea of how much physical damage you could soak in a
worst case scenario
. Aside from getting stunned, tanking with your ass, or getting ice-blocked - by far the most common worst case scenario is LAG SPIKE or even worse LAG OUT.
The other thing you fail to understand is that you can't account for the benefit block provides with a single number. Why? Because 60% of the time (on average) you will block double your SBV due to the critical block talent, +10% SBV for 10 sec after shield slam provided by the glyph of blocking, and of course double SBV when shield block is active which does not have 100% uptime. So probability does enter in and at best you can come up with an EH *range* not a simple single number. Finally, you need to know how many hits (equal or greater in size to your SBV range) to know how much total damage range your "blocks" of those "hits" would mitigate.
When we talk about EH, we are really interested in how many "2, 3, or 4" hit strings of physical damage between heals with no avoidance and no block that we can survive. That is the definition of EH.
1. Tell that to paladins and to the Anub adds.
2. You included armor in your EH calculations. But armor doesn't always apply, since some damage bypasses it. Likewise, under some circumstances block can be bypassed or ignored. That doesn't mean you shouldn't include both when calculating EH for typical circumstances. For bosses that ignore either or both (whether temporarily/intermittently or constantly), you can then calculate a boss-specific EH if you want.
As for not including base block value in EH (when unhittable) just because of critical block, that's just stupid. Just because you can block twice as much some of the time doesn't mean you can't be certain of
at least
your basic block value applying. When 100% of hits that aren't avoided are blocked, it doesn't matter if 60% of the hits that are not avoided get blocked for double - you are certain to block
at least
your base block value. Probability does simply not come into play.
Post by
303745
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Sakkura
So... a tank MUST be "unhittable" to tank hard mode Anub adds? Fine. I'm just saying that your typical tank hasn't progressed that far nor acquired all the specific gear to be "unhittable". Thus, using the definition of EH as I've defined it is more practical when we are talking about tanking in general. Some fights will require you to consider other things, like being unhittable, having high resists, etc.
The only boss attack I know of that bypasses armor is Onyxia's wing buffet. Are there others? I wear 2X +170 stamina trinkets when facing her for this very reason.
No, a tank doesn't strictly have to be unhittable for Anub, but it certainly is the typical way to tank the adds. And like I said, paladins more often get block into their EH calculation since they have abilities that help them in that regard.
There are lots of other boss abilities that bypass armor. All spell damage, and stuff like Onyxia's breaths now that we're on the topic.
Post by
Sakkura
Okay, I'll accept that. So, that means you can calculate an: EH_1 hit, EH_2 hits, EH_3 hits, EH_4 hits, etc. and only apply your base SBV (modified by raid buffs of course). But isn't it more convenient to use a single number for EH ? Maybe pick the EH_3 hits I guess...
That said, you're still not accounting for the "worst case scenario" which is not being able to block at all due to any number of things as described above.. namely *lag spikes*. For reference, I had about a 9-10 second lag spike in phase 3 of Anub-normal-10man last week -- but my high EH (not accounting for block) and my excellent healer kept me up.
Well, I guess you could make different numbers for how many hits you'd expect the boss to kill you with. Or at least stick to the worst you could possibly imagine - like, dying in two hits, thus counting block value twice. It's pretty rare to get literally oneshotted from full health by a melee attack.
Tanking with your ass is pretty bad, it should never happen unless you are doing something wrong. If you have major lag spikes, then that is a much bigger issue than whether your gear is optimised a bit in one direction or the other. A 10 second lag spike... That's a lot of standing in fires in a worst case scenario. No amount of EH will save you then.
Post by
Sadpanda
You people and your accursed math are the reason this game is hard! ><
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