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Re-thinking red sockets
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Post by
303745
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
marklartank
if your dodge/parry ratio is really high, you will benefit more from parry/stam gems than dodge/stam gems.
however, the differences you are talking about are very small and probably not worth regemming either way. if you want to trade dodge for EH, the change i would make is to get the badge trinket instead of your dodge one.
Post by
303745
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
marklartank
armor is just as effective against big hits as small ones. similar to stamina, it allows you to absorb more hits without a heal. and toc is heavy on the physical damage.
why did you think you'll have more hp left with the stam trinket? i plugged some typical numbers into tankspot's EH calculator and the badge trinket is worth ~400 more EH. not to mention it has a very nice use effect, compared to the brewfest's female dwarf summon.
when you're thinking about taking multiple small hits, you're thinking about block's effectiveness, not armor's.
Post by
Sakkura
It seems that the armor trinket is only good when there are lots of rapid *small* hits.
What? No. All it does in that regard is make block value a better stat, but that's a marginal effect in almost all cases.
Armor adds to EH. Stamina adds to EH. The extra EH from armor is just not displayed anywhere (except addons). Effectively, with more armor it is as if you have more total health. This obviously only applies if you're taking physical damage.
Post by
303745
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Sakkura
Analyzing hit for hit like that is silly, it's far too granular to be applied generally. You'd want to ideally use an infinite number of infinitesimal attacks. There's a reason calculus became popular you know.
The point is, adding either health, stamina or armor will at one point or another allow you to live through one more hit (or block). Each small step on its own is very unlikely to allow you to survive another full hit from a boss, but added up with lots of other steps and the remnant of health you had left after the previous hit(s), you'll get there sooner or later.
But this does show the reason stacking EH eventually becomes less powerful (though never actually bad); being able to survive a few hits in a row has much more value than being able to survive several hits in a row, since you shouldn't take several hits in a row without heals anyway.
Post by
303745
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
marklartank
here are my numbers vs. lvl 83 raid boss, using me as an example:
raid set with:
A) +170 stam trinket
hp = 40232 unbuffed*
armor = 25351 unbuffed*
PDR% vs. lvl 83 boss = 64.34% (includes 10% defensive stance bonus)
EH_physical vs. lvl 83 boss =
112826
(includes 10% defensive stance bonus)
B) +1792 armor trinket
hp = 38432 unbuffed*
armor = 27143 unbuffed*
PDR% vs. lvl 83 boss = 65.80% (includes 10% defensive stance bonus)
EH_physical vs. lvl 83 boss =
112378
(includes 10% defensive stance bonus)
* includes stoneblood flask (+1950 hp for us alchemists) and blackened dragonfin but no Commanding Shout or raid buffs.
it's a bit silly to use unbuffed stats to compare the two since we don't fight unbuffed. try 50k hp / 30k armor for comparison.
also, you are ignoring the use effects of both trinkets in your calculations. for magical fights, i also switch out the badge trinket for the heart of iron. i'll still take the use effect over the extra 8 stam of the brewfest mug.
Post by
Porcell
* includes stoneblood flask (+1950 hp for us alchemists) and blackened dragonfin but no Commanding Shout or raid buffs.
Prove me wrong.
Oh wait, maybe you aren't an alchemist ? lol, the benefits of choosing the right prof. :P
Really there should be a friggin slot shown on the damn armory that shows my hp with the alchemist bonus of +650 hp. Gotta knock you blacksmiths off your high horse lol.
I don't understand the profession jabs. Blacksmith gives 636 extra hp without kings and 700 extra hp with kings. You seem to be under the illusion that Alchemy is somehow better than Blacksmithing. I fail to see how Alchemy is the "right" profession.
Post by
303745
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Sakkura
EH is the limit and was calculated above. Did you notice that?
....
Back on topic..
maybe the best option is just to gem pure stamina in a red socket if you are over expertise soft cap and you have high diminishing returns on adding to avoidance stats?
1. Yeah, but since the effect of armor on EH scales with health, and the effect of stamina/health on EH scales with armor, the calculation will be different for characters with different stats from yours (ie. almost everyone). The calculation will also be different for
you
when buffed.
2. That seems likely, yes. On the other hand, it's not like expertise is a terrible stat after the soft cap, so it depends what socket bonuses you're looking at losing.
Post by
303745
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
marklartank
here's the link, unless the
calculator
doesn't work anymore.
i used 50k/30k = 161,976
then subtract the stam trinket (50k - (170*1.1*10)) = 48130 and add the armor trinket (30k + 1792 = 31792)
48130/31792 = 162151
i used 2k for block value and 60% for avoidance. i didn't double-check it, so i can't really say how they do their calculations.
the two points i made originally were:
1) the armor trinket is more EH than the dodge one
2) armor is just as effective against big giant hits as it is against multiple, small, rapid hits.
i plugged some very general numbers into tankspot's calculator to show that for EH, the badge trinket is very close to the brewfest trinket. which one is actually a tiny bit higher or lower is irrelevant, and will depend greatly on the user's gear. factor in the use effect, and the badge trinket is far better.
in fact, i have no gear sets that i would include the brewfest trinket in; there are better options in every case.
Post by
Sakkura
in fact, i have no gear sets that i would include the brewfest trinket in; there are better options in every case.
If you were in the not uncommon situation of having the badge trinket and the black heart, you would want to swap at least the badge trinket to the brewfest trinket when facing bosses with significant non-physical damage output. But for your general tank set, I agree.
Post by
marklartank
in fact, i have no gear sets that i would include the brewfest trinket in; there are better options in every case.
If you were in the not uncommon situation of having the badge trinket and the black heart, you would want to swap at least the badge trinket to the brewfest trinket when facing bosses with significant non-physical damage output. But for your general tank set, I agree.
ok, true enough for tanks that are just now getting started raiding and didn't see a lot of ulduar (missing out, btw).
i have
heart of iron
,
king llane
,
black heart
, and the
badge trinket
- those pretty much cover all my options.
Post by
303745
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Sakkura
Tankspot's calculator is fine except that block or avoidance should be "greyed out/set to zero" since by definition: "EH is the amount of PHYSICAL damage you can soak WITHOUT heals, avoidance, or block".
That definition is wrong. If you have 100% chance to block (or, rather, 0% chance to NOT block or avoid), the block value should be included in the EH calculation since it is active even in the worst-case scenario. EH is a measure of how much raw physical damage you can survive in just such a worst-case scenario.
Post by
303745
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
marklartank
i'm not trying to prove which has more or less EH; i simply used an established website's calculator to show that they were very close to each other. i don't know why you are so fixated on 400 EH one way or the other.
i didn't mean to derail this thread, but many people don't understand that armor is just as good or better than stam for physical damage fights, including ones that deliver huge hits. you even made an statement about this yourself:
It seems that the armor trinket is only good when there are lots of rapid *small* hits.
ok, last time i'm going to say this: the EH of both trinkets are very close to each other (for physical fights). in fact, i VERY much prefer the EH from armor over stam because it does not need to be "filled back up". the proc puts the badge trinket way, way ahead.
by the way, of my 4 trinkets, only 1 is from 25-man content. all of the rest are available to any 10-man raiding tank.
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