Raid Makeup and Class Synergy - A discussion

Post by Dothorio

I tried (successfully) to bring this same conversation up with my guild and ever since that point in time everyone has become more acquainted with what classes they have never played are capable of doing. I see a lot of misinformation floating around on these forums so I thought this would be a good time and place to start this conversation.

Simply put: some raid groups are better than other raid groups. Why? Skill, gear, knowledge, and group formation!

Skill and knowledge are probably the easiest to work on. Either someone can be trained to play better and learn the fights, or they can't. You can identify this and substitute people in and out whenever they become a liability to your raid.

Gear is another issue entirely, but blizzard is constantly injecting new gear into the game, so new players don't get entirely left behind.

Group makeup is an easy easy way to make everything easier on the raid, but due to raid leaders concerned with other things or misconceptions about what classes can bring to raids your makeup might be less than optimal. Hopefully you can point them to this thread to open their eyes to what needs to be changed.

Post by Dothorio

What's the first thing officers look for when forming a raid? "Do we have enough tanks? Do we have enough healers?" Have them take these two questions and make the next logical step "Do we have enough support classes? Do we have enough DPS?"

Know which fights require top notch AoE damage and bring enough Mages and Warlocks. Know which fights will be ok to bring fourteen rogues to.

Each guild is different and there is a lot of variety in what an optimal raid group looks like. I've heard lots of people laugh because my guild raids with three holy paladin healers. Well, I'm ok with that because we just haven't been able to recruit any resto shaman since two of our best quit months ago. We have a resto druid too, but he has been MIA due to holidays.

On the same token, we've made space in our raid for a Ret paladin, because we decided having a beefy melee group and high judgement uptime would be extremely beneficial for the raid as a whole.

Hell, I even get to raid as moonkin :) Crazy stuff huh?

Lets start with the tank group. For almost every boss fight I'd argue that a PROT warrior is going to be superior to a feral druid or prot paladin simply because of their "uh-oh" buttons (shield wall, last stand). There are exceptions, so please don't be angry with me. Here's a few typical tank group setups.

MT - Prot warrior
Imp Devo Aura paladin
Shaman for totems
Imp Imp Warlock
Tree Druid

This group would give some of the best possible mitigation for a warrior in a tanking situation. However, there are times when this group cannot be filled for one reason or another, so other makeups are possible.

MT - Prot Warrior
DPS warrior
Shaman
Feral Druid
Ret Paladin

this group would be for maximium threat generation, at the loss of quite a bit of the mitigation. Adjust your MT group accordingly to what is most needed.

And yes, WF totem is a huge boost to your warrior's threat generation. If you can spare a shaman be sure to get it to him! (If you're stuck raiding with just one like my guild, he would probably be more valuable in a melee group).

Post by Dothorio

The importance of Shadow Priests

Shadow priests have emerged as the king of utility in BC raiding, along with retaining a fairly high percentage of DPS compared to the "pure" dps classes. Just as a benchmark, a shadow priest geared at the Tier 5 level will return anywhere from 250-300 mp5 for their entire group on a stand and nuke fight like Tidewalker. Adjust this according to the fight, but I find that is a pretty good explanation of how valuable they are.

Your caster group will love them. Your BM hunters will be able to go full tilt. Your healing corps will be able to run with one less healer than normal. There is really no bad way to use a shadow priest, unless you put them in with all rogues and warriors. That's just silly though.

So how many shadow priests should you bring to a raid? How many do you have is the answer. Two is the standard fare from people in other guilds I've talked to. Three would be optimal for a raid heavy on caster and mana dependent dps classes.

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Post by Dothorio

The Tanking Corps

A problem my guild ran into early in BC raiding was that we had too many prot warriors that wanted to raid. As we felt our way through who was better in what situations we got a feeling for how many we needed, and those that got fewer invites eventually moved on. Unnecessary drama could be avoided, but it really got me thinking.

Bring four prot warriors and once you get to a boss where there is only one thing to tank your DPS will suffer. Sure, devatate dps isn't that bad considering you're a prot warrior, but there has to be a better way to roll.

My optimal tanking corps would contain a MT Prot warrior, a feral druid, a prot paladin (or a second feral druid) and a dps warrior. The strengths and weaknesses of each class can be tailored for the encounter. Feral druids can soak lots and lots of damage with their high armor and HP, they are perfect for tanking the Shaman on Karathress. Prot paladins shine on fights with lots of mobs to be gathered up (Tidewalker/all of hyjal trash). The DPS warrior makes a fine tank on trash that requires multiple tanks. Each of the three tanking classes can make for a fine MT in a pinch, just make sure your healers are aware of their tanking style and how they handle incoming damage.

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Post by Dothorio

"Each of the three tanking classes can make for a fine MT in a pinch, just make sure your healers are aware of their tanking style and how they handle incoming damage."

Is what I said. Sorry its a bit ambiguous, but I wouldn't expect a resto druid or a ret paladin to tank.

Post by 98973

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Post by Dothorio

Paladins

Paladins make excellent healers capable DPS and Tanks. There is a bit of confusion on exactly what they can bring to a raid though, since they have such a wide range of utility.

Retribution Paladins have three talents to increase raid dps. Improved Sanctity Aura increases damage caused by those within the aura's range by 1/2%. Sanctified Crusader causes Judgement of the Crusader to also increase the critical strike chance of ALL attacks made against the judged target by 1/2/3%. Crusader Strike is an instant strike that causes weapon damage plus 40% of Holy spell damage AND refreshes all Judgements on the target.

Paladins have nine blessings that they can buff your raid with.

Might increases melee AP by 220, can be increased by talents.
Protection grants immunity to physical damage for 10 seconds, cooldown can be reduced by talents.
Wisdom grants 41 mp5, mana gain can be increased by talents.
Freedom grants immunity to movement imparing effects for 10 seconds and frees target from movement imparing effects, duration can be increased by talents
Salvation grants a 30% reduction in threat generation
Sanctuary reduces damage taken from all sources by 80 and inflicts 46 holy damage to the attacker if the attack is blocked by a shield. This blessing is gained through a talent
Light increases heals made by Holy Light by 580 and Flash of Light by 185
Sacrifice transfers 45/55/81/104 damage per hit taken to paladin for 30 seconds.
Kings grants +10% to all attributes. This blessing is gained through a talent.

Paladins also have eight auras they can activate.

Devotion - Gives additional 861 armor to nearby party members.
Retribution - Causes 26 holy damage to any creature that strikes a party member.
Concentration - Gives 35% chance of ignoring spell casting delays caused by damage to nearby party members.
Sanctity - Increases Holy damage done by party members within 30 yards by 10%.
Shadow Resistance - Increases the group's shadow resistance to 70.
Frost Resistance - Increases the group's frost resistance to 70.
Fire Resistance - Increases the group's fire resistance to 70.
Crusader - Increases the mounted speed by 20% for all party members within 30 yards. Does not stack with other movement speed increasing effects.

Additionally, Paladins can use a seal and then judge it on a target, granting a debuff that does various things for your raid. There are six Judgements and Seals shared by every paladin, and one unique to horde and alliance.

Righteousness - Fills the Paladin with holy spirit for 30 sec, granting each melee attack an additional X1 to X2 Holy damage. Two-handed weapons cause more Holy damage per swing. Only one Seal can be active on the Paladin at any one time. - Unleashing this Seal's energy will cause 208 to 228 Holy damage to an enemy.
Command - Gives the Paladin a chance to deal additional Holy damage equal to 70% of normal weapon damage. Only one Seal can be active on the Paladin at any one time. Lasts 30 sec. - Unleashing this Seal's energy will judge an enemy, instantly causing 228 to 252 Holy damage, 456 to 504 if the target is stunned or incapacitated.
The Crusader - Fills the Paladin with the spirit of a crusader for 30 sec, granting 412 melee attack power. The Paladin also attacks 40% faster, but deals less damage with each attack. Only one Seal can be active on the Paladin at any one time. - Unleashing this Seal's energy will judge an enemy for 20 sec, increasing Holy damage taken by up to 190. Your melee strikes will refresh the spell's duration. Only one Judgement per Paladin can be active at any one time.
Justice - Fills the Paladin with the spirit of justice for 30 sec, giving each melee attack a chance to stun for 2 sec. Only one Seal can be active on the Paladin at any one time. - Unleashing this Seal's energy will judge an enemy for 20 sec, preventing them from fleeing and limiting their movement speed. Your melee strikes will refresh the spell's duration. Only one Judgement per Paladin can be active at any one time.
Light - Fills the Paladin with divine light for 30 sec, giving each melee attack a chance to heal the Paladin for 133. Only one Seal can be active on the Paladin at any one time. - Unleashing this Seal's energy will judge an enemy for 20 sec, granting melee attacks made against the judged enemy a chance of healing the attacker for 95. Your melee strikes will refresh the spell's duration. Only one Judgement per Paladin can be active at any one time.
Wisdom - Fills the Paladin with divine wisdom for 30 sec, giving each melee attack a chance to restore 121 of the Paladin's mana. Only one Seal can be active on the Paladin at any one time. - Unleashing this Seal's energy will judge an enemy for 20 sec, granting attacks and spells used against the judged enemy a chance to restore 74 mana to the attacker. Your melee strikes will refresh the spell's duration. Only one Judgement per Paladin can be active at any one time.
Vengeance (Alliance only) - Fills the Paladin with holy power, granting each melee attack a chance to cause 120 Holy damage over 12 sec. This effect can stack up to 5 times. Only one Seal can be active on the Paladin at any one time. Lasts 30 sec. - Unleashing this Seal's energy will judge an enemy, instantly causing 120 Holy damage per application of Holy Vengeance.
Blood (Horde only) - All melee attacks deal additional Holy damage equal to 35% of normal weapon damage, but the Paladin loses health equal to 10% of the total damage inflicted. - Unleashing this Seal's energy will judge an enemy, instantly causing 295 to 325 Holy damage at the cost of health equal to 33% of the damage caused.

Post by Dothorio

Shaman

Like Paladins, Shaman make excellent healers and very good DPS as either Enhancement or Elemental, all while bringing a wide variety of utility to a raid.

Each talent tree brings something unique to a raid. Elemental shamans have a Fire totem that increases the chance to hit and crit with spells by 3% for all party members. Enhancement shaman have a talent to increase the Strength and Agility from their totems by 15% along with a talent that increases their party's melee AP by 10% whenever the shaman crits. Restoration shaman have Mana tide totem along with Earth shield, which heals the shielded target by 270 every time they are hit, lasting 10 charges or 10 minutes.

Everyone knows that Shaman totems are powerful raid tools, but not everyone is familiar with what four totems can be used at once. Shaman can drop one totem from each of their four types, Earth, Water, Air and Fire. Unfortunately, Blizzard decided against a Heart totem.

Shaman Air Totems

Grace of Air - Summons a Grace of Air Totem with 5 health at the feet of the caster. The totem increases the agility of party members within 20 yards by 77. Lasts 2 min.
Grounding - Summons a Grounding Totem with 5 health at the feet of the caster that will redirect one harmful spell cast on a nearby party member to itself every 10 seconds. Will not redirect area of effect spells. Lasts 45 sec.
Nature Resistance - Summons a Nature Resistance Totem with 5 health at the feet of the caster for 2 min that increases the nature resistance of party members within 20 yards by 70.
Sentry - Summons an immobile Sentry Totem with 100 health at your feet for 5 min that allows vision of nearby area and warns of enemies that attack it. Right-Click on buff to switch back and forth between totem sight and shaman sight.
Tranquil Air - Summons a Tranquil Air Totem with 5 health at the feet of the caster. The totem reduces the threat caused by all party members within 20 yards by 20%. Lasts 2 min.
Windfury Totem - Summons a Windfury Totem with 5 health at the feet of the caster. The totem enchants all party members main-hand weapons with wind, if they are within 20 yards. Each hit has a 20% chance of granting the attacker 1 extra attack with 445 extra attack power. Lasts 2 min.
Windwall Totem - Summons a Windwall Totem with 5 health at the feet of the caster. The totem protects party members within 20 yards, reducing ranged damage taken by 102. Lasts 2 min.
Wrath of Air - Summons a Wrath of Air Totem with 5 health at the feet of the caster. Party members within 20 yards of the totem have their spell damage and healing increased by up to 101. Lasts 2 min.

Shaman Earth Totems

Stoneskin Totem - Summons a Stoneskin Totem with 5 health at the feet of the caster. The totem protects party members within 20 yards, reducing melee damage taken by 43. Lasts 2 min.
Earthbind Totem - Summons an Earthbind Totem with 5 health at the feet of the caster for 45 sec that slows the movement speed of enemies within 10 yards.
Stoneclaw Totem - Summons a Stoneclaw Totem with 1315 health at the feet of the caster for 15 sec that taunts creatures within 8 yards to attack it. Enemies attacking the Stoneclaw Totem have a 50% chance to be stunned for 3 sec.
Strength of Earth Totem - Summons a Strength of Earth Totem with 5 health at the feet of the caster. The totem increases the strength of party members within 20 yards by 86. Lasts 2 min.
Tremor Totem - Summons a Tremor Totem with 5 health at the feet of the caster that shakes the ground around it, removing Fear, Charm and Sleep effects from party members within 30 yards. Lasts 2 min.
Earth Elemental Totem - Summon an elemental totem that calls forth a greater earth elemental to protect the caster and allies. Lasts 2 min.

Shaman Fire Totems

Flametongue Totem - Summons a Flametongue Totem with 5 health at the feet of the caster. The totem enchants all party members' main-hand weapons with fire if they are within 20 yards. Each hit causes 19.3766 to 59.68 additional Fire damage, based on the speed of the weapon. Slower weapons cause more fire damage per swing. Lasts 2 min.
Fire Nova Totem - Summons a Fire Nova Totem that has 5 health and lasts 5 sec. Unless it is destroyed within 4 sec., the totem inflicts 654 to 730 fire damage to enemies within 10 yd.
Frost Resistance Totem - Summons a Frost Resistance Totem with 5 health at the feet of the caster for 2 min. The totem increases party members' frost resistance by 70, if within 20 yards.
Magma Totem - Summons a Magma Totem with 5 health at the feet of the caster for 20 sec that causes 97 Fire damage to creatures within 8 yards every 2 seconds.
Searing Totem - Summons a Searing Totem with 5 health at your feet for 60 sec that repeatedly attacks an enemy within 20 yards for 50 to 66 Fire damage.
Totem of Wrath - Summons a Totem of Wrath with 5 health at the feet of the caster. The totem increases the chance to hit and critically strike with spells by 3% for all party members within 20 yards. Lasts 2 min.
Fire Elemental Totem - Summons an elemental totem that calls forth a greater fire elemental to rain destruction on the caster's enemies. Lasts 2 min.

Shaman Water Totems

Disease Cleansing Totem - Summons a Disease Cleansing Totem with 5 health at the feet of the caster that attempts to remove 1 disease effect from party members within 20 yards every 5 seconds. Lasts 2 min.
Poison Cleansing Totem - Summons a Poison Cleansing Totem with 5 health at the feet of the caster that attempts to remove 1 poison effect from party members within 20 yards every 5 seconds. Lasts 2 min.
Fire Resistance Totem - Summons a Fire Resistance Totem with 5 health at the feet of the caster for 2 min that increases the fire resistance of party members within 20 yards by 70.
Healing Stream Totem - Summons a Healing Stream Totem with 5 health at the feet of the caster for 2 min that heals group members within 20 yards for 18 every 2 seconds.
Mana Spring Totem - Summons a Mana Spring Totem with 5 health at the feet of the caster for 2 min that restores 12 mana every 2 seconds to group members within 20 yards.
Mana Tide Totem - Summons a Mana Tide Totem with 5 health at the feet of the caster for 12 sec that restores 6% of total mana every 3 seconds to group members within 20 yards.

Post by Celdhyrean

The idea is good, but you might want to summarize for each classes what ability they can use that brings bonus for the raid instead of those big walls of spell lists. (listing those that are effectively used, forgetting those that look good but are useless).

For personal abilities, the dps/healing abilities of the player will be enough for people to judge themselves. Or you could give an approximative ranking as to what dps is possible (without being the best geared of that class) for those who refuse to test, but that's probably bound to result in inane argumentation between people :/

Post by Zequel

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Post by Dothorio

Ideal Group synergies:

Spell DPS
Elemental Shaman
Moonkin Druid
Shadow Priest
Mage
Warlock

Melee DPS
Warrior
Feral Druid
Rogue x2
Enhance Shaman

I'd definitely replace the moonkin with a retribution paladin. +3% crit to melee/spells for raid > Spell +5% crit for party. The only debuff that would challenge the +3% crit is possibly Misery (+5% spell damage). And yeah WF rocks for MT warrior threat.

This is a perfect example of exactly what I hoped to discuss in this thread. A moonkin without doubt will be more valuable in that caster group than a ret paladin. 5% crit is just worth more dps than 2% increased damage. The raidwide 3% crit is very nice, but for a ret paladin to bring utility and "good" enough dps they need the support of a melee group with a shaman and warrior. I'm not saying that a moonkin is better than a ret paladin. I'm saying if you have a moonkin and a ret paladin, find another spot for the ret and let the moonkin do his thing in the caster group. Your destro warlocks (and therefore shadow priests and other warlocks) will love you because of the increased Imp SB uptime.

And I apologize for the walls of text, but I thought the four things that needed to be discussed most about raid composition had to do with your tanks, shadow priests and what exactly your paladins and shamans bring to the table. It seems to me that there is quite a bit of confusion about exactly how valuable those four types can be to a raid.

Do realize that this varies from guild to guild. Not one guild is identical to another so the group makeup should vary. Thats what I want to discuss. Evaluate your own raid makeup and discuss what you think can be improved upon.

Post by pelf

And I apologize for the walls of text,
Good use of bullets, underlining and line breaks -- perhaps just use some bold on spell/ability names and the walls will have some eye-holds to snap to. Getting a lot of text to be easily readable is quite an exercise in formatting :). Perhaps when you get this all written up you might want to do one of those (reserved) sequence of posts things so the information is all at the top. I'd be willing to bet the moderators would work with you on that -- they're quite talkative on IRC.

Excellent discourse ... I look forward to seeing how this goes :).

As an example of some possible formatting ideas:
Additionally, Paladins can use a seal and then judge it on a target, granting a debuff that does various things for your raid. There are six Judgements and Seals shared by every paladin, and one unique to horde and alliance.
(For all Seals and Judgements, only one can be active on a target at a time.)

Light - Fills the Paladin with divine light for 30 sec, giving each melee attack a chance to heal the Paladin for 133.
(JUDGEMENT) Unleashing this Seal's energy will judge an enemy for 20 sec, granting melee attacks made against the judged enemy a chance of healing the attacker for 95. Your melee strikes will refresh the spell's duration.

Wisdom - Fills the Paladin with divine wisdom for 30 sec, giving each melee attack a chance to restore 121 of the Paladin's mana.
(JUDGEMENT) Unleashing this Seal's energy will judge an enemy for 20 sec, granting attacks and spells used against the judged enemy a chance to restore 74 mana to the attacker. Your melee strikes will refresh the spell's duration.

Vengeance (Alliance only) - Fills the Paladin with holy power, granting each melee attack a chance to cause 120 Holy damage over 12 sec. This effect can stack up to 5 times. Lasts 30 sec.
(JUDGEMENT) Unleashing this Seal's energy will judge an enemy, instantly causing 120 Holy damage per application of Holy Vengeance.

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Post by Dothorio

Two shadow priests in one group is overkill. Like I mentioned earlier, a skilled and geared shadow priest will return upwards of 250mp5 to each person in the party, there is no need for two in one group.

Any DPS caster will tell you that having a shadow priest for mana return is necessary for their optimal DPS output. Mixing moonkin and shadow priest isn't about making sure someone will get better use out of the crit aura, its about getting the group the mana return. Plus, priests love to see big SW:D and MB crits.

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Post by Spartonian

As far as whether a Moonkin in a caster group with Affliction Warlocks is worth it, well, it definitely is. Warlocks are still Shadowbolt spamming(Nightfall procs... whee) between DOT applications. More Imp Shadowbolt procs will help a lot, especially if a Shadow Priest is in there somewhere.

Raid Makeup and Class Synergy - A discussion

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