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PvP as Arms: horrible! As Prot: awesome!
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Post by
Syntaxis
Granted, I'm only level 79, doing battlegrounds. But the mobility of being a Protection Warrior, the defensive tools without having to stance-dance all the time (losing your rage) is amazing! The damage output might not be as high as Arms, in theory anyway, but at least I get CLOSE to people, they aren't killing me as easy, and I can stun them reliably.
The 6k crits from Execute are nice when Arms, and the fact that you can Mortal Strike someone is nice I suppose, but in between fears, snares, stuns, roots and other crowd-control mechanics, I'm not really hitting anyone.
So while it obviously works miracles in BG's, I have 1 question..
Is a Protection Warrior a
viable
partner to have in ANY setup involving a Priest or Paladin in arena's?
Post by
87278
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Post by
Shiverlynn
Priest and Paladin, no. However, prot warriors are very viable with rogues, but... that's a 2 dps combo, with all the strengths and weaknesses of a 2 dps combo. If you play with a healer, it'll be fun, but don't expect a high rating.
You simply won't be able to kill any healer teams without MS and high Damage.
It's not true. I can kill healers, and if I can't, then I still can prevent them from getting off the slightest heal thanks to all the stuns, silences and one fear the prot warriors have plus dispelling any instant hots they might have on. However, if my partner is a healer too, I don't have enough DPS to bring the opponents down and they will win eventually.
Post by
405482
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255458
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87278
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405482
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Post by
skumbananer
I think that arms really shines when in BGs, not arenas, in full pve gear and pve specc. Kamikaze with sweeping strikes, retaliation, glyphed cleaves and bladestorm by the "flag-bridge" in eots at all the allies.
Post by
255458
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Post by
Shiverlynn
I'm really not with you Hospy. You're right on everything except on the fact that being Prot makes you a liability to your group.
I've PvPed both in large packs in BGs and alone. When I'm in a group, I tend to not being in the front lines but watching for the healers. I swear no healer gets killed by a rogue when I'm around. It's not about stunning a bunch of people for 3 seconds. With me, healers are simply immortal even if several guys are punching them. One stun here, one disarm there, one imp spell reflect for that warlock who's thinking he'll nuke the stuff down, intervene the healer who gets a mini-shield wall and 2 attacks redirected (glyphed and talented Intervene)... In the end, I did contribute to the victory, and sometimes I did contribute more than that one DPS in the front line who was bashing things and didn't care about the one who was healing him.
Prot's really good alone too. Not only 1vs1 but 1vs2 or 3.
It's the same as in PvE. The strength of the spec doesn't come from the fact you're in a group. That's the group that gets benefits from you being in it. Just as in PvE your role is to protect people, not to kill things. Wanna kill things, go Arms.
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445975
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255458
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Post by
Squishalot
I agree and disagree with Hospy, for a number of reasons, and coming from the viewpoint of a Paladin.
I BG regularly as a Prot pally, and we suffer all the same comparisons between Ret/Prot as you do with Arms/Prot, except that Ret burst was OP for a goodly period of time, so there was even more resistance to spec otherwise.
Note - I'm lucky enough to have a pocket healer - a Resto Druid with 900+ resilience. So this does shape our strategy somewhat.
In a BG like Arathi Basin, we don't roam around in groups with other damage dealers. We head straight for Farm (we're Alliance), and hold that location. Essentially, we see our job as holding an area and preventing a cap against 5 or 6 horde, to allow the other 13 members of the team to cap LM, BS and GM through numbers.
If people focus on the tree, then I use my stuns, silences and shields to help keep him alive as long as possible as he heals himself. If people focus on me, then everything's going to plan, and we tank them down.
By the time we die, the battleground will be 3-0 or 4-0, and the game will pretty much be over.
Prot doesn't shine very well in groups, when there are plenty of targets to choose instead. Solo'ing in BGs or in pairs is the ideal way to work, and holding up a location for strategic purposes.
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255458
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405482
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Post by
Squishalot
Prot paladins bring much more support to the table than prot warriors can, as you have on demand stun, burst, and silence (Avenger's Shield, Shield of the Righteous) while having your abilities cost mana. Prot warriors are reliant upon rage from taking damage to use their abilities.
You also have incredible healing potential (until next patch anyway) for when people aren't attacking you/your abilities are on cooldown. Warriors are pretty much left to autoattack.
I'm not trying to attack your post or anything, there's just a large difference between prot paladins and prot warriors that doesn't really make the argument comparable.
A Prot paladin will go out of mana incredibly quickly if they don't have a constant source of healing. So the mana/rage comparison is actually fairer than it seems, at first glance. I agree that there is a world of difference between paladin and warrior playstyles, but the gap between Arms/Prot is similar to the gap between Ret/Prot. They're also worlds apart.
Yes, warriors are more dependent on your opponent's actions, but the situation I'm referring to is one in which you essentially force your opponents to focus on you.
If you break it down, a Warrior's defensive abilities are generally on shorter cooldowns than a Paladin's. Charge, which is effective in interrupting someone attacking your healer, has a 15 second cooldown, plus it removes movement impairing effects. And generates rage. And heck, it's a ranged counter. How often have you seen Paladins get kited by mages and the like?
Shield Bash is on a 12 second cooldown. You have an AoE stun in Shockwave, on a 20 second cooldown, relative to our 20 second cooldown on our single target Hammer of Justice. I know you're talking about being low on rage, but if you are being focused on, what equivalent do Paladins have to Intimidating Shout?
All I'm saying is that if you can force opponents to focus on you, you've got plenty of skills to cope with the situation. Holding a flag point by yourself or with a healer is one such situation. From my lower level Warrior experience, there is plenty of rage from Charge, Bloodrage and auto-attacks to be able to utilise your crowd control/defensive abilities, and once you demonstrate that you're a threat, they'll have no choice but to focus on you.
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87278
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Post by
Squishalot
Kiting? Paladins aren't the ones with a long-range quick-close, zero mana/rage cost skill.
Divine Plea restores 5% mana every 3 seconds, it's not that much when your 9 second 'rotation' costs you 55% of base mana. Ask any Protadin who's in PvP, they'll tell you that their biggest concern is mana firstly, followed by being kited/chain feared by casters. A Protadin's main source of mana comes from Blessing of Sanctuary when they're being focused on, restoring 2% mana per block, much the same way that you get rage back each time you block.
As for comparisons - if you followed my posts, I'm not using the comparisons as a cry of 'OMG PROT WARRIORS ARE OPPPP'. I'm merely highlighting that Prot Paladins use their CC and interrupts in a BG environment quite effectively, and that Prot Warriors can do exactly the same role, if slightly nuanced towards their skills.
Hospy is arguing that there is a huge gap between Prot Paladins and Prot Warriors and their ability to use their defensive CCs in the environment. I'm saying that there isn't that much difference.
As for the comparison to Bubble - I vote Last Stand. (Paladins have only recently (3.2) gotten the upgrade to Ardent Defender, which even I will admit is completely and unprecedently overpowered). Bubble takes the heat off you, but won't get you back up and running again once it wears off. You get 12 seconds respite, and while mana starved, if you sit there and auto-attack the whole time, you'll get enough mana back for one half-heal Holy Light off for about 3k heals (Divine Plea healing debuff). Compare that to a 30% health bonus from Last Stand?
Post by
255458
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