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Protadin tanking is... redundant?
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Post by
138535
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
runtodarkness
I'm way too lazy to read everything here but just FYI pally tanks master at handling multiple mobs, the more mobs the better they function. Also, the mana generated is incredibly sufficient in order to sustain your abilities. You aren't like a warrior where you start from empty and build up, you start from full and you chip away at that. Note that you chip away at like 6000 mana with spells that cost like 700 incredibly quickly, but the incoming heals and hits are perfectly sufficient.
A big problem solved by divine plea and the new blessing of sanctuary was that in BC paladin tanks had no mana gain other than spiritual attunement. I could litterally tank a 70 reg with a 2hander, and if I did not, I litterally could NOT tank it because I simply didn't take the damage to keep up the mana output. If a dps took aggro on a boss and you were already low, you had no mana gain. No mana gain = no threat gain, so you would lose that mob/boss and have extreme difficulty getting it back.
Post by
150265
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
runtodarkness
I could litterally tank a 70 reg with a 2hander, and if I did not, I litterally could NOT tank it because I simply didn't take the damage to keep up the mana output.
I used to take off my pants to tank. I'm glad I don't have to do that anymore.
Oh god I hated those days... healers begging me not to use holy shield, or putting on dps gear... stuff like that... spinning in circles was a common one too
Post by
Squishalot
The main reason I worry about dying is because I usually end up soloing dungeons that are too high for me! I've tried Scholomance a few times but after about 6 deaths I tend to call it a day :D
When I'm not soloing I team up with a Feral Druid (same level as me) who heals while I tank. Some of the fights are pretty touch and go but I usually manage to keep myself alive - if not always the Druid!
We did Hellfire Ramparts a couple of days ago and I only died once. I'm not sure I could have afforded not to use Seal of Vengeance, though. I lost threat a few times as it is.
Yep, I know what you mean. That's the main reason I didn't really do much instance content pre-80.
You've got a lot of agility stuff (of the Bandit, of the Monkey) - that's helped to keep your dodge high, but you can still improve avoidance in other areas.
Scour the auction house for a bit - plug in 'Champion' into the search bar, and look through the list. Rings of the Champion are usually pricey (25g+) but are great investments. It shouldn't come as too much of an expense to your stamina, but the increased avoidance and reduced critical hits should make it easier to survive.
Most of Scholomance is doable at mid/late 60s, but slowly. Judicious use of Holy Wrath and Exorcism are keys to getting through. Blessing of Sanctuary will keep your mana up during the pulls, so feel free to use Seal of Vengeance. Glyph for Hammer of the Righteous (if you haven't already) for better effect (it won't be as useful in Ramparts, less 4 pulls).
For Ramparts, maybe your druid friend is better off as a dedicated healer? If he goes resto, he'll be able to keep you and your mana topped up, and you can Vengeance all you like. Don't be afraid to use your stuns, remember to line-of-sight the casters (especially the insane pull at the top of the ramp around the corner).
Post by
trojahn
Sorry, Wisdom Aura? I wish I had that spell on my Holy Paladin, whatever it is.
Oh I'm sorry... I do have a job IRL and I don't have neither the time or the lack of woman to remember the exact name of every single spell in World of Warcraft...
The name was "Seal of Wisdom", but you probably already knew that right? You could have mentioned that instead of being a jackass...
Good thing there's ppl like me that actualy TRY to help...
Post by
Synectics
Damn im only lvl 65 :( need 6 levels more for divine plea...
I have dual specced my holy pally and have tanked the first 3 outland instances, but have some mana issues...
i use 10 mana pots in a run, cos of my mana. i think i have invested in stamina too much...have over 10K HP but only 23 regen. Someone told me that regen isnt neccesary for pallys, and i guess hes right?
i have tried some alterations with auras seals etc, but have to test things further...i guess ill have to deal with it till 71 ;P
When I was doing Outlands, I never, EVER, had to use a mana pot, and very rarely ever had to drink. To me, Pally tanking was always super-EZ mode.
Using Sanctuary and Vengeance was the no-brainer way to go at all times. Normal pulls of 3 or 4 mobs would keep me at full mana and never make the healer even dip below 90% mana to keep me alive (Shammy healer, fyi).
I did my best to stack as much Defense Rating and Strength as possible. With such a high avoidance, my mana would stay topped easily through BoS alone. Although of note, I wouldn't keep Consecrate going the entire pull, as it usually wasn't necessary -- even with mage AOE's, my initial burst threat from Avenger Shield and Hammer of Righteousness was enough to hold it down. One or two Consecrates was enough to keep the threat up.
Post by
Thrombin
Scour the auction house for a bit - plug in 'Champion' into the search bar, and look through the list. Rings of the Champion are usually pricey (25g+) but are great investments. It shouldn't come as too much of an expense to your stamina, but the increased avoidance and reduced critical hits should make it easier to survive.
Most of Scholomance is doable at mid/late 60s, but slowly. Judicious use of Holy Wrath and Exorcism are keys to getting through. Blessing of Sanctuary will keep your mana up during the pulls, so feel free to use Seal of Vengeance. Glyph for Hammer of the Righteous (if you haven't already) for better effect (it won't be as useful in Ramparts, less 4 pulls).
For Ramparts, maybe your druid friend is better off as a dedicated healer? If he goes resto, he'll be able to keep you and your mana topped up, and you can Vengeance all you like. Don't be afraid to use your stuns, remember to line-of-sight the casters (especially the insane pull at the top of the ramp around the corner).
Thanks again for the tips. Ironically I think I replaced a Ring of the Champion with a +42 Stamina ring recently but my Tankpoints addon reckoned the Stamina was the better of the two. The thing is, there are low level Champion items and higher level Champion items so I figure you can't just go by the name to decide what's best. I do think Tankpoints is probably not designed to advise on what's best for solo play, though, so maybe I should be overriding it a bit more often.
Right now I have Glyphs for Seal of Vengeance, Exorcism, Lay on Hands and Sense Undead. Should I give up the Vengeance or the Exorcism for the Hammer one?
I can't see my Druid friend going Resto. He likes his bear form too much :D Basically, he's like me, tends to solo most of the time except when we team up for the odd instance together. We finished ramparts in one run but he died on the last boss and didn't get back in time to pick up the Quest item before the body vanished. D'oh! So I helped him do it again. He didn't die the second time :)
Regards
Thrombin
Post by
Synectics
Right now I have Glyphs for Seal of Vengeance, Exorcism, Lay on Hands and Sense Undead. Should I give up the Vengeance or the Exorcism for the Hammer one?
Drop both Exorcism and Lay on Hands.
Pick up the Hammer glyph. It allows you to keep threat on a bigger pull, and therefore let AOE classes do their thing easier. While Exorcism is decent, and can help keep threat on a single target, I was just fine in Outlands back before Exorcism was made useable on any target. You shouldn't have any NEED to use Exo, though til you have Shield of Righteousness, it's not a bad fill-in to your rotation.
The last is a toss-up. Either the Divine Plea glyph when you're the proper level (3% less damage while it's active, so... 3% less damage at all times) or Consecration, in my opinion. I haven't tanked much at 80, but I like Consecration glyph and how it changes the rotation a little.
Post by
Thrombin
I love Exorcism, especially against undead and demons. It's about the only ranged spell I've got other than Avenger's Shield. Besides, I'm not really disciplined enough for rotations. I just spam whatever's off cooldown as soon as it's off cooldown. Probably why I get mana problems :D
Bearing in mind that I spend 90% of the game playing solo, I'm more worried about stuff that keeps me alive without a healer than stuff that helps my threat. Having said that, Hammer over Exorcism makes sense because it's currently accounting for more of my dps than Exorcism does and an extra hammer is a 33% increase on damage vs. the 20% increase from the exorcism glyph. Not counting the fact it will spread the Vengeance DOT faster. Of course, it only works if I'm fighting four or more mobs but that's when I most need the help :D
Still, it may be that Exorcism is still a better choice than the Expertise from the Vengeance glyph as I very rarely if ever fight things higher level than I am.
I can't think of any reason to dop the lay on hands Glyph. It's a minor so I can't replace it with Consecration and the number of times Lay on Hands has saved me I'm loathe to lengthen the cooldown!
Post by
Squishalot
Lay on Hands glyph is fine. Synectics has just been max level long enough to forget that you only have 2 major glyph slots :) He's thinking the major glyph (divinity?) that also impacts on Lay on Hands.
Expertise is good either way, you don't need to be fighting someone of a higher level. 5 Expertise points gives you 1.25% less chance to be dodged/parried, which is good at any level, even if you are 5 levels above the mobs you're fighting. I do agree that you should swap Exorcism for Hammer of the Righteous - there are enough times in solo play where you will encounter 4 people, for grinding if nothing else.
I actually think that the Seal of Wisdom minor glyph would be more useful for you. It means that if you're running low on mana, it's cheap to switch seals and hammer up to replenish your mana. Are you judging Wisdom or Light normally?
Final thought - Tankpoints doesn't take into account item interdepencies, does it? So even if you're lacking defence rating and avoidance all over, it'll still tell you to take the stamina ring.
Post by
Synectics
Lay on Hands glyph is fine. Synectics has just been max level long enough to forget that you only have 2 major glyph slots :) He's thinking the major glyph (divinity?) that also impacts on Lay on Hands.
To be honest, I just thought Lay on Hands was a Major Glyph. Shh! Don't let anyone know what a noob I am! XD
And I hadn't thought to mention the Seal of Wisdom glyph. I definitely recommend it, as if, for whatever reason, you get that low on mana, it makes it very easy to switch over.
Post by
295979
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Synectics
Just a thought, most everyone is talking about Seal of Vengeance.
I was scratching my head bigtime thinking WHY o why i havent ever seen it!
I cant be THAT blind leveling as prot to my current lvl 75.
Then i searched it and found out it was only for alliance lol!
Now to my question, If your a BE pala, which other seal is equal to it?
Seal of Corruption is the same as Seal of Vengeance.
Post by
273977
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Thrombin
Final thought - Tankpoints doesn't take into account item interdepencies, does it? So even if you're lacking defence rating and avoidance all over, it'll still tell you to take the stamina ring.
I would guess that the formula works by calculating how many attacks you can take without dying with the selected gear - assuming a certain level of mob doing a certain level of damage per hit.
So if your avoidance and mitigation means you take 5000 damage in 10 attacks and you have 5000 health then you die in 10 attacks. If you have no avoidance and take 10000 damage in 10 attacks, 10000 health will give you the same tank points. Either way, you die after 10 attacks!
Assuming this is the principle then it seems sound to me. Some level of health must at some point compensate for any lack of avoidance.
However, without healing from external sources, sooner or later any level of health will run out given a long enough fight unless you can keep the damage to less than you get back from Seal /Judgement of Light. So, for solo play, I'm thinking that avoidance is more useful than Tankpoints is likely to think it is.
Regards
Thrombin
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