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Prot pally for PVP?
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Post by
337618
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Vellas
Tank vs dps = skyscraper vs toddler. Mostly.
Post by
337618
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Vellas
No prob. On my dk, slightly pvp geared, at the time gemmed straight resil, I dueled my friend, a dk tank with nothing but pve gear.
I was throwing pebbles at the pentagon.
Post by
PureGold
No prob. On my dk, slightly pvp geared, at the time gemmed straight resil, I dueled my friend, a dk tank with nothing but pve gear.
I was throwing pebbles at the pentagon.
I'm sorry but dks don't count sir, Dk tanks are just dpsers who can take hits.
Post by
Vellas
No prob. On my dk, slightly pvp geared, at the time gemmed straight resil, I dueled my friend, a dk tank with nothing but pve gear.
I was throwing pebbles at the pentagon.
I'm sorry but dks don't count sir, Dk tanks are just dpsers who can take hits.
I was pointing more at the huge amount of hit points.
Post by
Squishalot
It's not really about the huge number of hit points though.
If your opponent dodges or parries an attack, be it a white attack, Crusader Strike, Divine Storm, you lose the damage from the attack *AND* the damage from Seal of Blood/Martyr. (Assuming a Ret pally attacker.)
Edit 2: The TL;DR answer to the OP's question - use a cookie cutter PvE Prot pally spec, and you can't go too wrong. Reasons why below if you don't mind reading.
Facts of the matter are:
With 50% avoidance, he's going to dodge/parry half of your damage, irrespective of what you do. (Consecrate being one of the few unavoidable abilities that you'll have)
A decent block will absorb ~2000 damage, being half of one of your hits - a decent prot pally will have enough block to ensure that every hit is either avoided or mitigated. Ret pallies don't do 18k hits like raid bosses do.
They never run out of mana, thanks to never ending Divine Plea.
Although I haven't investigated it yet, under PvP hit roll dynamics, you effectively lose half of your crit rating to avoided attacks. If it uses the same PvE hit roll dynamics, you lose all your crit rating to block cap - a prot pally doesn't need nearly as much resilience, especially if they're raid defence spec'd already.
They have so much mitigation. Imp RF: 6%. BoS: 3%. Divine Plea: 3%. Spell damage (incl SoB/M? and Judgements): 6%. Armor rating usually gives them 60% to start off with. Once you actually start to get near to killing them, Ardent Defender kicks in and they gain another 30%. A critical Hammer of Wrath isn't guaranteed to take them down once they get below 20% health.
Hammer of Justice on 20 sec cooldown ftw.
That's if they're PvE spec'd. And that's the sad bit. Consider those that are actually PvP spec'd:
Glyph of Salvation means that they have the ability to mitigate an extra 20%.
Glyph of Avenger's Shield means that they sacrifice the ability to deal with multiple targets, but can hit you for double damage, and effectively crit you for quadruple normal damage.
Against a melee opponent, everything is laughable. Warriors can charge and stall them for a while, but Bladestorm loses a lot of its effectiveness when every second hit is avoided and every other hit is blocked. Plus, it just means that they get hit by a Holy Shield proc every 1-2 seconds. Ret pallies fair slightly better, since they can heal themselves, but a well timed stun or silence (Avenger's Shield) can stop that too. Rogues simply bounce off the Retribution Aura.
The only ones who can outperform a Prot pally are generally casters, who can kite them around. The big disadvantage there is the fact that Prot pallies don't mitigate against spell damage very well. That's where a good DK tank is a better proposition.
Edit: Just thought it noteworthy from my personal experience - I levelled as Prot through Hellfire Peninsula, and that was just as Wrath was released. As a result, there were hundreds of DKs running around, Blood, Frost and Unholy, dueling each other, dueling warriors, dueling me, taking me on in world PvP.
For what it's worth, I didn't lose a single 1v1 duel, or even a 2v1 world PvP challenge. Not because I'm an uber player (though possibly because they didn't know how to use their brand spanking new DKs), but simply because Prot Pallies = OP vs melee based classes.
Post by
Decimater
Edit: Just thought it noteworthy from my personal experience - I levelled as Prot through Hellfire Peninsula, and that was just as Wrath was released. As a result, there were hundreds of DKs running around, Blood, Frost and Unholy, dueling each other, dueling warriors, dueling me, taking me on in world PvP.
For what it's worth, I didn't lose a single 1v1 duel, or even a 2v1 world PvP challenge. Not because I'm an uber player (though possibly because they didn't know how to use their brand spanking new DKs), but simply because Prot Pallies = OP vs melee based classes.
Hahaha good times, I always couldn't help but laugh when the death grip hits me! Prots are definitely not worth going after in world pvp. Even if you do manage to win, that battle is gonna take way more time than it's worth. Just run! Prot pallies don't kill you nearly as fast when you aren't hitting them.
Post by
Squishalot
There was one time when I wasn't laughing - a party of Horde DKs turned my pally into a Human volleyball by throwing me around for a while =__=;;
Speaking of being thrown around, I discovered the other night that in H Nexus, when Grand Magus Telestra throws you around, you can get an attack in as she spins you past her again. So Exorcism while you're far away, Shield of the Righteous when you come back in, Avenging Shield when she spins you back out, Hammer of Righteousness on the way back, etc...
Post by
153008
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Squishalot
SoB/M or SoJ, depending on whether you're the one who needs to do damage on your own, or whether you're there to soak up attacks and interrupt. Arenas, they've usually got a very specific interrupt role, I believe. In world PvP, I just go with whatever seal I've got at the time, which is usually SoV or SoW.
BGs, again, I normally go with SoJ for the interrupts.
Post by
337618
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Squishalot
The advantage of resilience is that it has other benefits than simply reducing crit rates - it reduces crit damage, drain and DoT effects too.
The disadvantage of resilience is that it inevitably comes on gear that doesn't have dodge/parry/block rating. So you're effectively gimping your avoidance (recalling that that's the primary purpose of the spec) for the purposes of making yourself more crit-resistant.
The big disadvantage of the Prot PvP spec is simply that you're almost worse off compared to a Ret pally in dealing with casters. All of your vaunted defence and avoidance is useless in trying to avoid a Shadow Bolt. What you probably need to do to make it more balanced is glyph Hammer of Justice, so that you're less susceptible to being kited. Time your Avenger's Shield to silence/slow, use Judgement of Justice to slow them down, Seal of Justice to interrupt. Your silences have cooldowns of 20sec and 30sec - know that and use it accordingly. In doing so though, you then sacrifice your PvE prot spec, in order to make you a more viable PvP'er.
If Exorcism was still PvP, it might be the complete package - two ranged attacks, silence, stun, heavy melee damage. But as a Prot PvP pally, in BGs at least, always prepare to be the last one standing, and prepare to be attacked by 4, 5, 6 people at a time. You're going to be the one sitting at Farm, stopping half a dozen opposition players from recapping the flag just by Consecrating, surviving with your trinket, Hand of Freedom, Bubble 1, Bubble 2, Sacred Shield...
If you're in it for the honour (read: HKs), then it's the wrong spec for you, because you're highly unlikely to get many kills. But your raid is more likely to win overall, since tying up that many players for long periods of time leaves the rest of your raid to go out and cap at their leisure.
Edit: In a more direct answer to your question, I don't know the precise answer. I PvP using my PvE spec, since I have a Ret offspec for heroics/raids, and don't want to spend thousands on respec'ing costs. The only times I really do PvP as Prot, I partner up with a Resto Druid, and we basically treat the encounter as one giant trash fight - DPS optional :)
Post by
Magnerz
Squishalot has done a great job at answering your questions here, and most of his points are good, but i just wanna chuck a few adjustments in here and there...
Ret pallies are pretty much the only melee class who can stand a good change vs a prot palle due to the damage being spell based, but yes, the others are faceroll.
SoJ is very nice for interupts, but its uncontrolable, not saying its not a good deal, but SoV/SoC spreads damage with HotR, applies something which needs really to be dispelled, and when staks on multilpe targets can be a great way to deal dmg :)
Also i find that SoW is very useful after a while, people will learn to stay away from you after a while as you're too much hassle, so keeping up DP by hitting people gets increasingly difficult.
You practically have to Judge Wisdom to avoid going oom if you want to use consecration in combination with all of your other mana sucking abilities, so timing when to judge wisdom (ie on druids) becomes important :)
Also, in general BG's you can top HK's and come pretty darn close to top of damage done lists by the virtue of being near impossible to kill, having bubble, LoH, 20 second stuns, unrivalled avoidance, second bubble (50% one). In addition to this your burst is freaking ridiculous. Wings, glyphed AS, judge, ShotR, HotR can take a good 60-70% of opponents Hp off if you get lucky with crits. Prot pallie pvp got some blizz loving recently for sure :)) also, remeber your aura's! casters are your biggest issue, but you have an aura for each one, they are never too happy seeing resists pop up!
Post by
Squishalot
Except for druids :) Boomkins are still a PITA, especially since they can morph form, heal up and come back at you.
I disagree that Ret pallies can stand up to a Prot pally. Consecrate and Hammer of Wrath are the only spells that can't be mitigated by avoidance and block (though I'll need to check whether SoB/M can be blocked too). All the rest are melee attacks, run of a melee hit table, and can be mitigated accordingly. SoB/M won't proc if your melee attack doesn't hit, so against a Prot pally, you've lost half of your big guns right there already, unless you've *stacked* Expertise at the expense of Strength.
Certainly, SoV/C is better for damage dealing. If you're in it for the honour farming, then yes, SoV/C can work, Judge Wisdom to keep mana up over the whole 20 min fight, since DP will wear off after each short pull. But if you're in it for that, you might as well use SoB/M and laugh (cry) as it procs (crits) off a three-bounce HotR.
But then... you're not much more than a hard to kill DPS'er. You're just one more face dealing big holy damage in plate armour. Otherwise, you might as well just spec Ret and put on your prot gear, and get the same effect. The big benefits of being an undefeatable knight in shining armour come with solo'ing hordes of Horde (since no self-respecting Paladin would be a Blood Elf ;)), buying time for the rest of the raid to get their act together. Or picking up flags and running home with the aid of a healing party.
Prot pally talents aren't damage dealing talents, they're delaying, slowing, stunning, silencing. They keep you alive while absorbing huge amounts of damage, slowing down an advance. Or maybe I just like the lore too much :)
Post by
PureGold
Hey! I am a self respecting paladin, I just happen to think that monkeys, short drunkards, and space goats are less appealing than a (not ugly) woman using corrupted light to protect her allies.
Post by
Everborne
Wings, glyphed AS, judge, ShotR, HotR can take a good 60-70% of opponents Hp off if you get lucky with crits. Prot pallie pvp got some blizz loving recently for sure :)) also, remeber your aura's! casters are your biggest issue, but you have an aura for each one, they are never too happy seeing resists pop up!
What's Wings?
Post by
PureGold
Wings, glyphed AS, judge, ShotR, HotR can take a good 60-70% of opponents Hp off if you get lucky with crits. Prot pallie pvp got some blizz loving recently for sure :)) also, remeber your aura's! casters are your biggest issue, but you have an aura for each one, they are never too happy seeing resists pop up!
What's Wings?
The thing when you use it you gain wings...do you even have a pally?
*Avenging Wrath
Post by
Everborne
The thing when you use it you gain wings...do you even have a pally?
*Avenging WrathMy pally's only level 47, so I don't have Avenging Wrath yet. :/
Post by
Greatbrae
I've been trying to get information on the prot pally pvp spec, what is the average pvp prot spec that is not healing based.
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