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Possible "OP" Fix
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Post by
Dandrack
Ok, the first thing to understand about this post is this is purely speculation on Retribution Paladins and how many people see them as "Over-powered".
Some people might have already thought of this, but one way I think Bliz can really nerf Paladins is by REMOVING the Retribution talent
Judgements of the Wise
and redesigning
Divine Plea:
Change Divine Plea to give a debuff to reduce healing on the user by 50%. This effect would last 15 seconds, and would be undispellable.
Give Ret a 2/2 talent to remove the "amount healed by Flash of Light, Holy Light, and Holy Shock by 50%" and give Judgements a Replenishment effect. (The same effect Ret Paladins would previously have gotten from JotW.)
Give Ret another 2/2 talent (Or smoosh it together with the one above) that lets them renew Divine Plea with every melee hit, like the Prot talent
Guarded by the Light
.
Change a 2/2 Holy talent (Such as
Enlightened Judgements
) to remove 25% of the debuff with each point. (To balance it out for Holy Paladins.)
Change
Glyph of Divine Plea
to remove the debuff.
OR
Change the Protection talent
Guarded by the Light
to remove 25% of the healing debuff with each point. (To balance it out for Prot Paladins PvE-wise.)
How would this effectively change Ret Paladins? Well, it would make them sacrifice healing for Mana. (Mana -> Damage) It would probably work better as a Ret nerf PvP-wise, seeing as reducing healing done to them PvE-wise is kind of brutal.
And, finally, please put your two-cents into this. I know this suggestion needs alot of work, and I'd like some input on how it would/wouldn't help the issue.
Post by
299926
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Post by
Dandrack
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if they were to change Divine Plea to give the 50% healing done to the user debuff, it would be terrible for Prot Paladins, because they would have lack or heals. Ergo, changing
Guarded by the Light
to remove the debuff.
Or maybe I'm missing the whole point here. :<
Post by
228908
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Post by
ArgentSun
I am not certain why you wish to change DP for Retribution paladins in the first place. It's not like they suffer from severe mana problems...
Post by
00bender00
Change Divine Plea to give a debuff to reduce healing on the user by 50%. This effect would last 15 seconds, and would be undispellable.
I dont get your point, you mean we should get mana back from refreshing divine plea like prots do?
If so, one simple question, have you ever tried to pvp as prot spec?
Post by
299926
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Post by
89501
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Post by
pezz
So, if I understand this, you want to change the DP debuff to reduce heals on the user instead of from the user. This, combined with your other recommended changes, would mean:
1. This will make Holy even more insanely overpowered than it was when it only reduced healing by 20%. We could literally spam HL all day. After the beacon changes in 3.2, we could have about 7k HPS without even really trying, just keeping beacon up, judging light, targeting the OT, binding every key to HL, and facerolling.
2. Rets won't care about this weird change to DP. People don't say Ret are overpowered because they don't have mana problems. No intelligent, well geared DPS class does, except...
3. ...If you do implement these changes, Ret will be the only DPS class with mana problems, permanent DP or no. And it would be a melee class that runs out of mana. I mean, really, how embarassing is that?
4. If they do somehow have enough mana, their DPS won't change at all and people will still complain. Basically, on the slim chance you manage not to break the class with this, we'll be right back where we started.
Post by
124850
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Post by
Squishalot
ArgentSun - They don't have mana issues at the moment, and that's the OP's point - Judgements of the Wise is OP, because it's essentially a 25% mana boost every 8 seconds. By removing it, you're forcing a Ret pally to choose between mana recovery and health recovery.
bender - what's wrong with PvP'ing in Prot spec? Other than the mana problems ;p
I agree with the general sentiments - it won't work in its current form. Consider the following:
Ret mana recovery needs to sit at about 100% mana every 30 seconds to maintain a long-term PvE rotation. At the moment, this is done through a combination of Divine Plea and Judgements of the Wise.
By removing Judgements of the Wise and replacing it with a never-ending Divine Plea, a la Prot, you will be getting back 50% mana every 30 seconds. So to do so, you would need to either a) double the effectiveness of Divine Plea; b) halve the mana cost of Ret abilities; or c) give Ret pallies another way of getting back mana.
The point of this suggestion removes (c), so that option is gone. (b) removes most of the benefit from this suggestion - a Ret pally will then probably choose not to use Divine Plea in a PvP scenario, and they'll be able to unload a full minute of non-stop rotation (including Exo and Consecrate, so probably a bit more, actually), without needing a mana top up. So they'll still be pretty OP, considering that the primary reasoning for OP'ness is the burst, not the longevity.
So that leaves (a). As people have mentioned, this will totally revolutionise the way people play Holy pallies. No healing debuff, since they're not healing themselves. 50% mana back every minute (if you use it on each cooldown). Holy Light spamming, here we come!
*ahem*
Ok, so the obvious solution would be to increase the CD to two minutes, so that Holy mana recovery doesn't change. Prot mana recovery is doubled, but tanks wouldn't notice the difference anyway. Ret mana recovery is unchanged, but they now have a MS debuff equivalent on them. Done by removing Judgements of the Wise and replacing it with a Guarded by the Light style talent, and having the Prot talent remove the MS debuff from using Divine Plea. And increasing the cooldown to two minutes, and doubling the effectiveness to 50% over 15 seconds.
So how does that solve the problem?
Ret saves up their mana and bursts people down anyway.
Holy doesn't really care, the change doesn't affect them much.
Prot-Holy becomes an unstoppable Holy Light force in the Arena, especially with the changes to Beacon in 3.2.
Prot-DPS becomes an unstoppable force, as all their mana problems are solved due to Divine Plea being twice as effective.
Post by
00bender00
bender - what's wrong with PvP'ing in Prot spec? Other than the mana problems ;p
That's the problem :/
Anyways a workaround absorb = oom thing would be nice....
Post by
Squishalot
Hehe yeah, sorry, was trying to be sarcastic, but didn't come out properly ;p
But I reckon my proposed solution would work wonders for that problem =D
Post by
pezz
Holy doesn't really care, the change doesn't affect them much.
If I understand what you post correctly, you're saying two minute DP, but double the mana returned. Basically the reverse of the change to innervate. You also want the healing done by character debuff removed in favor of a heal done to character debuff. If they manage their other cooldowns correctly, holy could almost spam HL literally forever with replenishment up. As I said before, this is even more overpowered than 3.0 was.
Post by
263280
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Squishalot
Holy doesn't really care, the change doesn't affect them much.
If I understand what you post correctly, you're saying two minute DP, but double the mana returned. Basically the reverse of the change to innervate.
You also want the healing done by character debuff removed in favor of a heal done to character debuff.
If they manage their other cooldowns correctly, holy could almost spam HL literally forever with replenishment up. As I said before, this is even more overpowered than 3.0 was.
Fair point. I should have made it clear that Holy will be uber-buffed by this. But I'm not a Holy pally, so it didn't really occur to me to hammer the point in :)
Hehe yeah, sorry, was trying to be sarcastic, but didn't come out properly ;p
But I reckon my proposed solution would work wonders for that problem =D
idk about that. Putting the cd of DP at 2 mins would only make my mana regen worse. since if I dont hit anything and DP runs i have to wait another minute. i.e trash pulls that are a little spaced out. and srry im not waiting out pulls for a 2 min skill to CD.
We're talking about Prot PvP, not PvE. In PvE anyway, who actually has mana issues on trash? If so, just use Seal of Wisdom on them, no great big deal.
Anyway, my response was intended on being relatively sarcastic. I mean, come on, the net effect of my change 'in order to fix Ret OP' is to make no real difference to Ret, boost Holy to unstoppable levels, and boost Prot about the same way. You can't honestly have been trying to take me seriously. It was more to highlight that stuffing around with DP doesn't really work the way the OP might have wanted.
Post by
263280
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Post by
321678
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Post by
5177
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Post by
xaratherus
...wait. Change DP so that it reduces healing taken by 50%?
Uh, no. I'm specifically
glyphed
on Divine Plea so that I can use it while tanking.
3.2 will already be fixing Ret burst damage, which is really the only thing that makes them OP in PvP; that being said, I'm against
any
nerf that is made solely for PvP reasons because it effects PvE.
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