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Penance glyph 3.1.2
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Post by
Samanosuke
*mirrored from my forum post*
I calculated out just how much of a nerf this is based on my gear (~2166 Spellpower)
First, here is a declaration of sorts.
Currently, Penance has a 6.4 sec CD with the glyph
10 CD
-2 sec from glyph
= 8 sec * .8 (20% reduction from aspiration) = 6.4
The change of the glyph from -2sec CD to +5% crit will make it have an 8 sec CD
10 CD
* .8
=8sec cast.
We will use this to determine a comparable frame of time. In particular, the Least Common Denomonator of the time is
32 SEC.
In this 32 seconds, we can ....
Get off 5 Penance casts with the -2sec glyph
Get off 4 Penance casts with the +5% crit glyph.
Each Penance cast has 3 BOLTS. (15 bolts w/ -2sec glyph, 12 bolts with +5% crit glyph)
Using my spellpower and recount over a period of time, I found my heal amount:
average HEAL 3390
average CRIT HEAL. 5060
The values for crit% and non crit in these tests are.
Crit
--------
non-crit
30%-------70%
35%------65%
40%------60%
45%------55%
50%------50%
55%------45%
The formula used to get the HEAL amounts was
=(Penance BOLTS * normal heal amount * non-crit%)+(penance bolts * crit heal amount * crit%)
The formula used to get the Divine Aegis amounts was
=(penance bolts * crit% * crit heal amount * .3 )
.3 being how much Divine Aegis shields for out of a crit heal.
These 2 numbers are added together to get a net total
=(Heal amount)+(Divine Aegis amount)
Here is the data for healing over 32 sec with -2sec glyph(15 bolts).
Crit
----
non-crit
----
Heal amoun
t---
Divine Aegis amt
---
Total
30%--------70%--------58365--------6831--------65196
35%-------65%--------59618--------7970--------67587
40%-------60%--------60870--------9108--------69978
45%-------55%--------62123--------10247--------72369
50%-------50%--------63375--------11385--------74760
55%-------45%--------64628--------12524--------77151
Here is the data for healing over 32sec with +5% crit glyph (12bolts)
Crit
----
non-crit
----
Heal amoun
t---
Divine Aegis amt
---
Total
30%-------70%-------46692-------5464-------52156
35%-------65%-------47694-------6375-------54069
40%------- 60%-------48696-------7286-------55982
45% -------55%-------49698-------8197-------57895
50% -------50%-------50700-------9108-------59808
55% -------45%-------51702-------10018-------61720
And here is the difference between the 2 as a percent of change of -2sec glyph.
The Heal, Divine Aegis and Total values of 30% CRIT, with -2sec glyph, are being compared to the values of the 35% CRIT with the +5% glyph.
CHANGE IN VALUES OVER 32 SEC.
Heal amt
t--------
Heal amt %
--------
DA amt
t-------
DA %
--------
Total
t-------
Total %
-10671.............-18%.............-1594...............-23%.........-13517.........-21%
-10922.............-18%.. ..........-1822.............-23%..........-13996..........-21%
-11172.............-18%..............-2049.............-23%.........-14474.........-21%
-11423.............-18%..............-2277.............-23%.........-14952.........-21%
-11673.............-18%..............-2505.............-23%.........-15430.........-21%
Based on my 2166 Spellpower.
The Change in the glyph will net the following over 32 sec.
a -18% margin of HEALING
a -23% margin of DIVINE AEGIS
a -21% margin in total.
For the hell of it, I calculated out just how much crit the glyph would have to add in order for it to be equal in terms of output of the -2sec glyph (over 32 sec).
Healing over 32 sec w/ -2sec glyph:
Crit
---
non-crit
---
Heal amoun
t---
Divine Aegis amt
---
Total
30% .......70%.......58365.......6831.......65196
Healing over 32 sec with a crit glyph:
Crit
---
non-crit
---
Heal amoun
t---
DA amt
--
Total
70%.......30%.......54708.......12751.2.......67459.2
So, in conclusion:
1) The change of the Penance glyph from -2sec to +5% is a definite NERF to penance. About 20% to be exact.
2) In order for it to be as good as it currently is, it would have to add 40% crit
to penance.
I wouldn't mind seeing a glyph that increases the crit % of Penance by 40%. This would add more to the whole Disc priest thing of shielding. However, leaving it as it is...+5% crit...The glyph inst even worth getting anymore.
Post by
razzem
Wouldn't your analysis only be true if you are casting it on every CD?
I'm looking at it from a very functional view here: if you don't use Penance every CD, it would mean that glyph of Penance is a waste, whereas, at least the crit is being applied every time you use Penance. I for one don't find myself casting it every CD: I gave it up for glyph of PoH, which I still haven't decided if that is worth it for disc (it makes up only 6% of my total healing done).
Post by
Samanosuke
Wouldn't your analysis only be true if you are casting it on every CD?
I'm looking at it from a very functional view here: if you don't use Penance every CD, it would mean that glyph of Penance is a waste, whereas, at least the crit is being applied every time you use Penance. I for one don't find myself casting it every CD: I gave it up for glyph of PoH, which I still haven't decided if that is worth it for disc (it makes up only 6% of my total healing done).
Is there any reason not to use it?
It provides a TON of heals and shields for for 618 mana
On the other hand Flash Heal provides nearly 1/3 of the heal for 521 mana
And Power Word: Shield does about 1/2 the heal for 666 mana.
Between a choice of Flash Heal and Penance... Penance should be used
Between a choice of PW:S and Penance... Penance should be used (it will most likely provide the same amount of shields....in addition to heals, for cheaper).
So.. you should replace whatever extra Flash Heal you are doing and use Penance instead.
There really isn't any reason not to, unless in a fight where timing is absolutely crucial....but even then, the shields that a penance provides, makes a buffer while you are doing Flash heal.
As for you taking the PoH glyph over Penance right now....No comment.
Post by
razzem
Perhaps you are talking a strict MT healer scenario? I'm not always in that role. Plenty of the time I'm raid healing, and most of the time, Flash heal is enough, and Penance would just be overkill/wasted mana. Maybe you are only talking MT healing and your PW:S, Renew, and Penance aren't enough to keep the tank up, I don't know. I just have never found that an 8 sec CD vs a 6.5 sec CD makes that big of a difference, even when I am MT healing. Maybe that's just me. Maybe your tank is taking bigger hits than mine does... pretty hard to say.
I do think your choice analysis is a very binary way of looking at it. I personally look at it as how much deficit I need to heal. If It's only 4k or so, I do flash heal. If it's more like 7k, then I'll do Penance. You can cast it every CD if you like, I just find that my style works well and conserves mana just fine. If I don't need the CD shortened on Penance, then PoH is a better glyph. But then again, it sounds like I do more raid healing than you, so maybe that makes sense. Who knows, eh? Apparently not me As for you taking the PoH glyph over Penance right now....No comment. This makes you sound fairly ignorant of what a Disc priest with Borrowed Time + PoH is capable of. No further comment :D
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Post by
karlusdavius
*mirrored from my forum post*
I calculated out just how much of a nerf this is based on my gear (~2166 Spellpower)
First, here is a declaration of sorts.
Currently, Penance has a 6.4 sec CD with the glyph
10 CD
-2 sec from glyph
= 8 sec * .8 (20% reduction from aspiration) = 6.4
The change of the glyph from -2sec CD to +5% crit will make it have an 8 sec CD
10 CD
* .8
=8sec cast.
We will use this to determine a comparable frame of time. In particular, the Least Common Denomonator of the time is
32 SEC.
In this 32 seconds, we can ....
Get off 5 Penance casts with the -2sec glyph
Get off 4 Penance casts with the +5% crit glyph.
Each Penance cast has 3 BOLTS. (15 bolts w/ -2sec glyph, 12 bolts with +5% crit glyph)
Using my spellpower and recount over a period of time, I found my heal amount:
average HEAL 3390
average CRIT HEAL. 5060
The values for crit% and non crit in these tests are.
Crit
--------
non-crit
30%-------70%
35%------65%
40%------60%
45%------55%
50%------50%
55%------45%
The formula used to get the HEAL amounts was
=(Penance BOLTS * normal heal amount * non-crit%)+(penance bolts * crit heal amount * crit%)
The formula used to get the Divine Aegis amounts was
=(penance bolts * crit% * crit heal amount * .3 )
.3 being how much Divine Aegis shields for out of a crit heal.
These 2 numbers are added together to get a net total
=(Heal amount)+(Divine Aegis amount)
Here is the data for healing over 32 sec with -2sec glyph(15 bolts).
Crit
----
non-crit
----
Heal amoun
t---
Divine Aegis amt
---
Total
30%--------70%--------58365--------6831--------65196
35%-------65%--------59618--------7970--------67587
40%-------60%--------60870--------9108--------69978
45%-------55%--------62123--------10247--------72369
50%-------50%--------63375--------11385--------74760
55%-------45%--------64628--------12524--------77151
Here is the data for healing over 32sec with +5% crit glyph (12bolts)
Crit
----
non-crit
----
Heal amoun
t---
Divine Aegis amt
---
Total
30%-------70%-------46692-------5464-------52156
35%-------65%-------47694-------6375-------54069
40%------- 60%-------48696-------7286-------55982
45% -------55%-------49698-------8197-------57895
50% -------50%-------50700-------9108-------59808
55% -------45%-------51702-------10018-------61720
And here is the difference between the 2 as a percent of change of -2sec glyph.
The Heal, Divine Aegis and Total values of 30% CRIT, with -2sec glyph, are being compared to the values of the 35% CRIT with the +5% glyph.
CHANGE IN VALUES OVER 32 SEC.
Heal amt
t--------
Heal amt %
--------
DA amt
t-------
DA %
--------
Total
t-------
Total %
-10671.............-18%.............-1594...............-23%.........-13517.........-21%
-10922.............-18%.. ..........-1822.............-23%..........-13996..........-21%
-11172.............-18%..............-2049.............-23%.........-14474.........-21%
-11423.............-18%..............-2277.............-23%.........-14952.........-21%
-11673.............-18%..............-2505.............-23%.........-15430.........-21%
Based on my 2166 Spellpower.
The Change in the glyph will net the following over 32 sec.
a -18% margin of HEALING
a -23% margin of DIVINE AEGIS
a -21% margin in total.
For the hell of it, I calculated out just how much crit the glyph would have to add in order for it to be equal in terms of output of the -2sec glyph (over 32 sec).
Healing over 32 sec w/ -2sec glyph:
Crit
---
non-crit
---
Heal amoun
t---
Divine Aegis amt
---
Total
30% .......70%.......58365.......6831.......65196
Healing over 32 sec without -2sec glyph:
Crit
---
non-crit
---
Heal amoun
t---
DA amt
--
Total
70%.......30%.......54708.......12751.2.......67459.2
So, in conclusion:
1) The change of the Penance glyph from -2sec to +5% is a definite NERF. About 20% to be exact.
2) In order for it to be as good as it currently is, it would have to add 40% crit
to penance.
I wouldn't mind seeing a glyph that increases the crit % of Penance by 40%. This would add more to the whole Disc priest thing of shielding. However, leaving it as it is...+5% crit...The glyph inst even worth getting anymore.
Wall of text Cirt's you for a stupid amount. Keep it simple and ill read it.
3.1.2 is killing Disc Priests.. this is absurd.
Pretty pathetic, post your finding on how we are being killed and i will take it into account.
Penance change was strictly a pvp nerf. a 6 second Penance was too much and made us FOTM but also way OP. We also got a SOul Warding change. Try doing WSG with 3 Disc priests on opposite team. A rogue could flag carry in that scenario. Now, it may be a bit less "Bursty" on the healing side. I feel balance finally setting in on the majority of talents effecting priests.
For a major glyph slot to one of our main spells, 5% crit is massive.
Between a choice of Flash Heal and Penance... Penance should be used
Between a choice of PW:S and Penance... Penance should be used (it will most likely provide the same amount of shields....in addition to heals, for cheaper).
So.. you should replace whatever extra Flash Heal you are doing and use Penance instead.
There really isn't any reason not to, unless in a fight where timing is absolutely crucial....but even then, the shields that a penance provides, makes a buffer while you are doing Flash heal.
As for you taking the PoH glyph over Penance right now....No comment.
Oh look, Penance was too slow in saving poor mr tanky. Why would you use Penance First rather than PW:S when the buffs you give to the Target + your raid far out weight it? Raid healing is actually something we can do very well. I've found on some fights im sitting back casting PW:S on anyone taking damage, using my BT buff for a poh when i see a group thats hit low. I have no mana issues with the new Hope Hymn. Were not just MT healers anymore. Get with the times and look at things from a diff PoV.
Yes, im in a bad mood
Post by
Paolo
Yes, im in a bad mood
Crits for a stupid amount.
Samano's calculations look very interesting. My take is that the glyph as currently implemented was just too much, for both PvP (mainly) and also PvE. In PvE, the best healing spell in the game went from a delicate 8-second weave to (practically) spam. I for one have felt like I no longer had to keep rhythm around this cooldown. Whether or not the new version is worth a major slot is a fair question though, but I have no hesitation to agree with bliz that the current version wasn't well balanced.
Post by
karlusdavius
Yes, im in a bad mood
Crits for a stupid amount.
Samano's calculations look very interesting. My take is that the glyph as currently implemented was just too much, for both PvP (mainly) and also PvE. In PvE, the best healing spell in the game went from a delicate 8-second weave to (practically) spam. I for one have felt like I no longer had to keep rhythm around this cooldown. Whether or not the new version is worth a major slot is a fair question though, but I have no hesitation to agree with bliz that the current version wasn't well balanced.
Want me to start a thread on how much more a wall of text crit's for than my text? :)
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105402
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Post by
karlusdavius
The change is a change, it's not going to break good priests either way. The Glyph however is uttterly worthless now.
5 % crit is a joke for a disc priest, considering most are already in the 25-35% unbuffed range, and easily hit 40-50% crit rates in raids.
Is there a disc priest out there who crits less than 40% of their heals? You don't need math to quickly figure out that losing ~20% healing from the 2nd most effective heal is a large nerf. If the glyph gave 5% healing to every spell, it would be a nerf; Penance doesn't need more crit, maybe an extra tick, or if it went raid smart per tick, but the proposed glyph would never see the light of day on any priest with a clue.
I want this smacked onto penance
Glyph of Holy Light
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