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New tank need help on holding aggro
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Post by
338012
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Post by
pak52b
howdy...
well, first of all, hard to read your post, but i know what you mean i think.
while i can't see you play, i can only give you pointers or say things that ive noticed while tanking (im mainspec DPS, but i tank a lot of heroics and an occasional raid)
1. check who you have vigilence on (and make sure you dont forget it!) shadow priests, locks, fury warriors tend to do nice aoe... check their gear, and guess who does the most threat, watch omen on different targets (to get an idea of the aoe threat) and put it on the one with the highest threat.
2. mark up your main target! (i hate it when a tank doesnt do that)
3. 1, heroic throw, bloodrage,shieldblock charge berserker rage shield slam and 2nd is blood rage cleave/devastate macro charge thunderclap shield slam
on the first one, be careful with berserker rage - it triggers the global cooldown and might mess up your rotation causing you to build less threat.
what i like to do is use a macro to heroic throw one caster, charge on my focus (skull) and target him. queue cleave, keep thunderclap on CD, and revenge / SS / dev whenever you get the chance... dont forget to use shockwave and conc. blow
4. use youre group composition: if you have a druid in the group, make sure you have thorns... a pally in the group can give ret aura (be careful with this one - it will give you more threat, but it will be harder (minimally) to get aggro back on a mob that has pulled from you), hunter can misdirect, rogues tott, etc...
5. and finally, if youre having problems, tell people to wait a sec before dpsing... like 2 sec after your first thunderclap.
6. finally, if you are overgeared by your dps, losing aggro isnt an unusual thing.. especially if they go all out on aoe and are good aoe classes.
Post by
357881
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
pak52b
One thing that I'd suggest is that you spam your heroic strike. It doesn't trigger the Global Cooldown since it only enhances your normal damage. Whenever you have enough rage (and this is most of the time), use some up on that. It will give you a lot more threat.
that depends on what youre tanking - i would use cleave for aoe trash... (i know the threat isnt as high as it is on single target with HS...)
Post by
Bayz0r
Firstly, you need to accept that warrior aoe tanking isn't great, and will never be as easy to do as Paladin's or DK's, but it can be done flawlessly as well.
Alright, so here are a few tips that I can give you:
1) Always mark the mobs that you want killed, in the order you want them killed. I've bound Skull to F1, X to F2 and so on and so forth. Skull, then X then square is more or less the accepted kill order, but you can inform your party members about kill order at the start if you want to make sure they know.
This will make sure that the mob that is being focused by the party is also the mob you're generating most threat on (ie. shield slamming and revenging etc).
2) Always use a threat meter (I suggest Omen) to help you monitor your threat on the target, and to see what the threat levels of other party members are.
3) Always Vigilance a high dps party member. The biggest threat generating classes seem to be warriors, warlocks and mages, so pick the better geared one of those classes in your party.
Some things should be also said about the rotation that you're using. The best way I've found for successfully tanking large amounts of mobs (3+) that are marked up, is to charge the first kill target (skull) and Shield Slam followed by a Thunder Clap and a Shockwave which hopefully will hit as many of the mobs as possible. Since you're tanking heroics mostly it seems, it's very likely this will stun the mobs, and by this time dps is probably all in there with their blizzards and volleys. By the time the stun from Shockwave runs out, you can Thunder Clap again. Once you have a healthy threat lead on your main target (check Omen), you can switch to another target (X for instance) and build some threat on that (shield slam, revenge, heroic strike) without fear of losing threat on the main target. Switch between targets and monitor threat on them, and apply shield slams and other abilities where needed.
Another very useful ability for AoE tanking is Cleave, when dealing with situations where it's likely people will be attacking other targets other than the main one (aoe or just idiots), I'll spam cleave as much as I can, and since it's off the GCD, I can keep putting down Thunder Claps and Shockwaves etc.
In short, use Thunder Clap whenever it's cooled down, use Shockwave whenever it's cooled down, cleave and switch targets as needed, depending on threat values.
There are of course other abilities that warriors can use for threat generation, but I won't go into it here since for basic tanking, mastering them is not needed (using Concussion blow for threat, Devastate or Sunder Armor etc).
Heroic Throw is a good way to start a pull if charging in is not advised (risk of chain pulling) and if your dps isn't so trigger happy that they'll unload all their cooldowns before the mob even reaches you. So if possible, I'd start with charge + TC + shockwave + shield slam + TC and cleave etc. Bloodrage, Commanding Shout etc are not "real abilities" that I'd include in the rotation, although they should obviously always be used as much as possible.
One last thing, remember that if you've talented Gag Order, Heroic Throw will interrupt spell casting and silence for a short while, so it is a good ability to use if you're faced with casters that don't want to pull with the rest of the group.
P.S.: Your Taunt may be failing because of too little hit rating.
Post by
Porcell
A little fix to your spec. You have points in Puncture but no points in Focused Rage. 1 rank of Puncture reduces cost of Devastate by 1 rage, whereas 1 rank of Focused Rage reduces cost of EVERYTHING by 1 rage. It should be pretty clear which is better for your points. Therefore, I'd suggest you drop the 2 points in Puncture and take 1 point out of Shield Specialization and then put 3 points into Focused Rage. In the Arms tree, you have 2/2 Imp Rend. You should honestly NEVER be using Rend. Put the 2 points into Imp Charge; more rage on the pull is always good.
I'll mimic the previous poster and say that Berserker Rage should not be done after the Charge because it uses a global cooldown. IF you want to use Berserker Rage (I rarely do), do it first since it lasts 10 seconds, so you'll get at least a few seconds of increased rage gen without wasting any time that could be used on threat moves.
Maybe some step-by-step examples would be good. Lets use second pull of Nexus, which is a simple 3-mob pull with a Caster Mob with two Dogs. Here's how I'd approach the pull.
Berserker Rage (optional)
Target Caster. Heroic Throw/Bloodrage Macro. Charge Caster, Thunderclap as soon as I reach the Target, and queue a Cleave.
Take half a step back to ensure all mobs are in front of you. Shockwave. Switch to Dog1 and Shield Block/Shield Slam macro. Switch to Dog2 and Devastate. Thunderclap just came off CD, so cast Thunderclap again. Switch to Caster and Devastate.
Doing all this takes about 7 seconds. Doing it this way will give you:
Caster: 2x Thunderclap, 1x Shockwave, 1 Devastate
Dog1: 2x Thunderclap, 1x Shockwave, 1 Shield Slam
Dog2: 2x Thunderclap, 1x Shockwave, 1 Devastate
Assuming around 700 Thunderclap damage, that's ~2700 threat per thunderclap. If your Shockwaves are around 2000 damage, that is about ~4200 threat per Shockwave. With 2k Shield Slams, each Shield Slam is about 5700 threat, and your initial Devastates will be around 3k threat each (Gets to be more once you start getting more damage from having the sunders up).
So you see, after 7 seconds (and assuming no crits anywhere and not even counting melee hits and cleaves), you've put around 13k-15k threat into all three targets. Assuming your DPS starts at exactly the same time you do (you usually get at least a second of head start), this is enough threat to hold off constant 2.5k DPS to each target. At this point you can continue to queue Cleaves and hit Thunderclap when it's off CD, and just focus on your main target (in this case the Caster). It can help if you mark mobs with a Skull for kill order, but eventually it will get to the point where you are skilled enough to just hold everything.
The key to holding multiple mobs is to spread around your threat. Thunderclap, Shockwave, and Cleave are huge. When you aren't doing those three, make sure that you are switching targets and throwing heavy Shield Slams and Devastates on your off targets. Take the blinders off and make sure you don't focus all of your attention on Skull (while still giving skull a little attention of course). When Skull is about dead, if you have 80,000 threat and the closest DPSer has 30,000 threat, you can think of that as 50,000 threat that is totally wasted and could have been used on other targets. Don't "over tank" mobs.
Post by
345745
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Post by
Porcell
this way when u lose aggro it is easier to select the approiate target and taunt them (make sure your hit rating is 8%)
Taunt has a 17% chance to miss and uses Spell Hit conversion rate. Basically, you will always have a chance to miss on taunts unless you are glyphed for taunt (which I don't suggest you do).
i use glyph of devaste (which applys it to 1 other target aswell as your main target),
That's glyph of sunder armor. Glyph of Devastate applies 2 stacks of sunder armor to the target you cast devastate on.
Post by
462489
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Post by
138583
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345745
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Post by
pak52b
@ zakkhar:
im not the one asking for advice ^^
he asked for asistance on multi mob trash tanking.. i still believe that they are valid, even if they arent the leetest of the leet.. (and only a noob marks, right?)
imo, if something makes your job easier, why not use it? not everyone has the gear or skill to aoe tank everything by just looking at it. (otherwise ppl wouldnt need advice or be able to learn, right?)
while you generally are right, it helps to take things slow while learning.. i for one hate getting a crappy tank that thinks he knows everything but doesnt do his job...
Post by
cosmicguen
2. mark up your main target! (i hate it when a tank doesnt do that)
It is not needed if the tank can keep agro on everything. You as dps need to know whats the kill order (most dangerous oppoenents, healers, clothies etc first).
Sorry, I felt I had to point this out. I've run with enough tanks who prefer to take mobs in different orders that marks really help out the dps and stop them getting hollered at for pulling. Not saying that different priority orders are 'right', but dps get kicked for pulling aggro, when it could be simply that they thought the priority was Mob A, and the tank was concentrating on Mob B.
i would charge in on the initial mobs hold all 3 then next minute the 3rd would slip off the side and start attacking group
Translate: "I struggle with AoE tanking." So yes, mark 'em up and take the pressure off a bit. Don't try to guess what mobs your group will pick first, tell 'em what to smack. Marks = communication = win.
If you are having problems you wont learn anything by doing that.
As long as healer can keep all up, a little pulling of you is nothing bad. If you are having problems its your fault, its you who is supposed to change (improve) not dps.
People wont wait 2s after each pull forever.
OK, I actually agree with the bolded bit, 100%. If people are pulling off you it can teach you a lot about your initial threat setup. Mobs running away forces you to look at the problem and fix it.
However...an extra couple of seconds can make the world of difference to a learner tank. I used to ask my dps to hold back a bit while I was learning, and now I'm bloody lucky if I get to the mobs before they do. OK, slight exaggeration, but they certainly don't wait as long as they used to.
Those extra 2 sec in the beginning were crucial to me getting the hang of the initial pull without having to worry about whether they were going to overaggro. It's essentially a type of muscle memory training - until you can punch the right buttons quickly and without thinking the only place you're going fast is the graveyard. Which also applies to
You got 2 stuns, Revenge stun, Intervene, Taunt, Mocking blow, Disarm... so many things to prevent dps from being killed.
You can practice using them if it's melee dps pulling, as the mob isn't going out of range. If it's ranged dps and you're having to think about where your 'save the dps' button is, it's not going to go well.
imo, if something makes your job easier, why not use it?
QFT.
So long as you're not slowing the run down to an unbearable crawl, take it steady and take the time to get a feel for your threat.
Removing my oar now :P
Post by
hemek
Let me tell you straight away that tanking with a warrior if you are not extremely well geared is hard for non skilled player. We don't have many AoE effects that constantly remain on the ground like DKs and Pallies. But in saying that we can take a %^&* load of damage. In saying that Thunder Clap is your friend and tab Devestate is also your friend
Use this build including the glyphs
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#LVMh0fZhZVItrg0zidczsGo:dbczom
Your rotation for Multimobs is:
Shield Block > Charge > Shield Slam > Thunder Clap > Shockwave (try to time this to when Shield Block finishes) > While the mobs are stunned Tab & Devestate until Thunder Clap is refreshed > (Cleave if you have over 50 rage). After this you should have a huge amount of agro - If you don't I suggest you roll a pally :P
No seriously though - Once you have done that initial rotation you basically Devestate. Shield Slam, Thunder Clap, Revenge and Shockwave when they are ready.
If you lose agro you have Mocking Blow, Taunt and Challenging Shout.
One thing that I like to do once I have a good lead in agro is do a demo shout so the healer has an easier job.
If you are facing against a mob with a caster in it the rotation is pretty the same only do a few extra things:
Select 1 Target > Shield Block > Charge - Just as you are charge Select the caster and use Heroic Throw > Once you get there Shield Slam > Shockwave > Thunder Clap > Spell Reflect when you can > continue your rotation.
This sort of rotation I found helps the healer with getting you back up to full health if you end up getting hit by a spell. Use Spell Reflect every time its up to help the healer. Spell Reflect is very effective in the build I provided earlier as it Reflects 4 extra party/raid members that are close to you. Perfect way of also gaining agro as it counts as an attack you performed or something.
So thats mobs
Bosses are dependant but my basic rotation is:
Shield Block > Charge > Shield Bash > Mocking Blow > Devestate
Basically you use every ability you can - Thunder Clap, Rend and Demo Shout as soon as you have a large amount of agro. Most DPS know how to watch agro but I use Mocking blow incase a crit pops off one of them and they accidentally pull.
Rules for a boss are generally thus - If you are low on Health pop Last Stand then any trinket that can help with HP (I use a macro). If you are low again use Shield Wall, Shield Block and Spell Reflect
NB
Shield Block and Spell Reflect are dependant on the boss
ie
Caster boss gets Spell Reflected and Melee boss gets Shield blocked. And don't forget to use your Regeneration - Don't worry about damage when you are about to die! - Remember Dead Tank + Dead Healer = Dead Party/Raid = Repair Bill = Vent Rage =
Angry Korean Lol Vid
Remember MORE DOTS MORE DOTS COME ON MORE DPS!
Post by
44782
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Post by
138583
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Post by
Fakir
I have no idea if this has been said already (I get lazy at reading posts a few pages long), but if you need better aoe threat replace Glyph of Devastate with Glyph of Cleaving it will help you hold three targets a lot easier. because you cleave hits 3 now instead of 2.
I would NEVER suggest any warrior tank to replace the glyph of devastate. It's simply too strong for threat generation. Instead replace either of the other glyphs for either the glyph of cleaving or glyph of vigilance if you need more threat.
About your spec:
Improved defensive stance gives a constant 10% dmg increase for 2 talent points. A must-have for threat. I would also recommend maxing Damage Shield and moving 2 points into cruelty. Those 5 points can be taken from improved blood rage (2 points) and Shield Spec (3 points). With this change you will have what's considered to be the best spec for threat. The build that Hemek recommended is aimed more towards survivability than maximizing threat.
About your gear:
Work on your wyrmrest accord reputation to get a cloak (honored) and chest piece (revered) which are both really good blues for threat (and tanking in general). Also keep farming ToC and ToC heroic for shoulders, boots, head piece and a ring which are also good upgrades for better threat (more strength, hit and expertise). With those upgrades you should also be able to repalce some of your yellow defense gems with green defense/stamina gems.
Abilities/macros:
Personally I have macroend my shield block skill to my shield slams in a macro so that whenever Shield Block is on CD it will automatically be cast just before my SS. I like that better than timing my Shield Block to certain events.
I also macroed my Blood Rage to certain skills in a similar way to use it automaticaly. I'd rather use it the easy way than forgetting to activate it because I'm busy pushing other buttons.
Post by
338012
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Post by
338012
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Post by
138583
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