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New Loot System [DKP + Item Level Bias]
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Post by
kevinno
Introduction
I remember when the Expansion came out, I was in a guild (which shall remain nameless) that had a system of the following conditions: When an item drops and you believe it is an upgrade for your main spec, type /roll, the highest roll wins no questions asked. Well, that system has a large flaw; it puts nothing into the fact of WHATS GOOD FOR THE RAID, not just the player himself. We had a TG Warrior in this guild and we were progressing through naxx10. I was tanking and was using a blue sword that I had gotten from Heroic Halls of Stone, while this TG Warrior was using a combination of Titansteel Destroyer and Demise. Of course we get to Heigan and demise drops. You don't need me to continue to say that the warrior won the Demise making it his second demise.
My point? Well, the unfair factor is that it was a 0.1 dps increase for him while it is a 17.4 dps increase for me.
I joined a new guild following that who had a system called DKP (Dragon/Dungeon Kill Points) and I fell in love with it. However it was not perfect, because once again, it did not take whats best for the raid into consideration.
Here is my new system that I have used on two naxx25 runs and an ulduar10 run. It worked fairly well, however it took a bit of time just because the raid was not used to it, I heard no complaints however on the system itself.
The system rules:
-DKP is collected over increments of Bosses, meaning when a boss dies, the DKP points are retallied
-1 Minute Spent in the Dungeon = 1 Dragon/Dungeon Kill Point (3 Hours = 180 DKP)
-Item level of items can alter the fate of who the item is awarded to
The formula for counting your "roll" on an item.
"YourDKPBet - (ItemLevelOfYourItem Divided by 2)" -< Round Your Item Level/2 >-
For example, in one of the Naxxaramas 25 runs, we had the Betrayer of Humanity Drop.
Here is a sample text of my addon forming the calculations. (The names of the following rollers are hidden for privacy reasons)
------------------------------------------------------------
Hatefiend has 230 DKP Remaining.
Hatefiend's bid on Betrayer of Humanity: 230 DKP
Hatefiend's current item level: (Death's Bite) 213
213 Divided by 2 = 107
Hatefiend's roll: 230 - 107===== >>123<<
-------------------------------------------------------------
RetPaladin has 270 DKP Remaining.
RetPaladin's bid on Betrayer of Humanity: 270 DKP
RetPaladin's current item level: (Colossal Skull-Clad Cleaver) 200
200 Divided by 2 = 100
RetPaladin's roll: 270 - 100===== >>170<<
-------------------------------------------------------------
Death Knight has 190 DKP Remaining.
Death Knight's bid on Betrayer of Humanity: 190 DKP
Death Knight's current item level: (Cryptfiend's Bite) 213
213 Divided by 2 = 107
Death Knight's roll: 190 - 107===== >>83<<
-------------------------------------------------------------
RetPaladin has received loot .
If anyone has any questions or suggestions to the system just comment. I believe it is a pretty well balanced system, however I may end up doing a new system of percentages if the system doesn't show improvement. I am open to trying to figure out how to add a weight system of DPS, Item Level, and DKP or Rolls to the system to make is extremely fair as well.
Post by
202470
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Post by
53090
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Post by
kevinno
I would suggest reading this article about creating a DKP system
http://www.wowwiki.com/Creating_a_DKP_system
I would also suggest looking into a Suicide Kings system
http://www.wowwiki.com/Suicide_Kings
I know both of these (but am not familiar with the King System) however I do not really see what you are trying to say.
I am asking you if there are any obvious flaws in this strategy.
Post by
385497
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
kevinno
-------------------------------------------------------------
Hunter has 200 DKP remaining.
Hunter's bid on Betrayer of Humanity: 200 DKP
Hunter's current item level: (
Staff of Trickery
) 200
200 divided by 2 = 100
Hunter's roll: 200 - 100====>>100<<
-------------------------------------------------------------
Warrior has 205 DKP remaining.
Warrior's bid on Betrayer of Humanity: 210 DKP
Warrior's current item level: (
Crpytfiend's Bite
) 213
213 divided by 2 = 106,5 (rounded up to 107)
Warrior's roll: 205 - 107====>>98<<
-------------------------------------------------------------
Hunter has recieved loot:
.
I see your point, but this brings up the point of Common Sense.
A mage could roll on it too the same way as you just showed, but the loot master wouldn't send it to him even if he won it like so.
Post by
385497
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
kevinno
That is pretty rough, but consider it this way. that cannot happen if you have a competent raid leader, and a raid leader that out of whack would not understand this system.
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157107
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53090
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385497
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Post by
kevinno
To Fluffballs,
Loot council is corrupted. Alliances and whispers make it impossible to know what the hell is going on and it just gets to absurd at some points
To Elamandri,
You are right about inflation and the fact that DKP can get a bit out of hand. However, I would perhaps RESET the DKP tally each time, so everyone would start with a clean slate.
Just like in a PUG, your other points however are somewhat biased except for the math issue which would be resolved by an addon.
To Flamingo,
All very valid points, a few of them... puzzling at the least x)
Post by
Katsudon
-------------------------------------------------------------
Hunter has 200 DKP remaining.
Hunter's bid on Betrayer of Humanity: 200 DKP
Hunter's current item level: (
Staff of Trickery
) 200
200 divided by 2 = 100
Hunter's roll: 200 - 100====>>100<<
-------------------------------------------------------------
Warrior has 205 DKP remaining.
Warrior's bid on Betrayer of Humanity: 210 DKP
Warrior's current item level: (
Crpytfiend's Bite
) 213
213 divided by 2 = 106,5 (rounded up to 107)
Warrior's roll: 205 - 107====>>98<<
-------------------------------------------------------------
Hunter has recieved loot:
.
I see your point, but this brings up the point of Common Sense.
A mage could roll on it too the same way as you just showed, but the loot master wouldn't send it to him even if he won it like so.
I've seen this happen first hand. not the dkp part, but a hunter winning a roll on BoH (pre-ulduar) and getting it. The way its itemized makes it ok for hunters, but honestly its pretty #$%^&*y for a hunter to roll on it in the first place. But on the flip side, how do you explain to a hunter who can both: use that weapon type, and use the stats on it that he can't roll if he has the most points.
Back on topic. Your system seems too difficult tbh. Your gonna be spending a good deal of time after each boss kill doing math, which is going to really suck when you hit really high demand items. Plus, you really have to account for inflation, otherwise the entire DKP system becomes worse then your typical main-spec first roll (if your a regular doesn't show up, good luck getting a non-regular member to join when he knows he wont get @#$% since hes so far behind). Your better off finding a guild that has some sense of ethics, and will pass small upgrades to people that need them more.
Post by
Porcell
There are a lot of different ways to do loot distribution, and all have their pros and cons. If your system works and you guys like it, then use it.
A few comments, I suppose. Rewarding DKP based on time rather than bosses being downed does necessarily encourage the raid to perform well (if the raid has a very loot-centered focus).
Also, I don't necessarily like "biggest upgrade" adjustments build into a DKP system. Quick example; running 25 man Ulduar and the Mimiron's Couplings (BiS tank bracers, L226) dropped. Myself and one of the other tanks had the bracers from 10 man (Flamewatch Armguards, L219). Mimiron Bracers are a point for point upgrade, they each of Str, Stam, Def, Dodge, Hit. The third tank in our team had the Badge Bracers (Str, Stam, Def, Parry, Hit; L213). Even though myself and the other tank could have taken the Mimiron's Couplings we passed to the third tank because it's a bigger upgrade.
Second point to the upgrade adjustment, leading back to your original post; you had a blue two hander, and the other guy had Demise and the crafted Titansteel. Why didn't you have a Titansteel? Why should he be penalized for buy crafted gear and performing better if it's going to lessen his chance at getting loot later on? Why wouldn't the fury warrior just not spend his gold, drag the raid down, and run with a Blue Weapon so he can get a DKP adjustment for it. Adjustments are junk (IMHO) for this reason.
As far as DKP systems, if you are the GL or RL, put in a system and if it works, keep it.
Post by
kevinno
I am liking some of the points being made here,
especially the one stating that one loot system is not meant for everyone, it is an opinion based argument.
The other thing I want to clarify is the math is not difficult here guys, were talking division and subtraction with numbers no larger than 500.
Finally the point about the hunter argument is somehow justifiable. I am a hunter on retail and I was allowed to roll on the axe myself (It was an upgrade from two anarchys) and it really made me think.
With this system a person has choices that they can make:
-The person can save DKP throughout the run for the stuff later on
-The person can plan out his DKP spending based on the advantages he will get based on his lower level gear slots
-The person can bid small amounts to gear up others instead of himself
So any way they want to plan out the run is their choice, the only thing I have modified in the classic DKP system is the fact that item levels are a modifier.
Post by
kevinno
In fact, after thinking about it for a few hours, I think resetting the DKP each raid would be a good way to stop inflation.
That way each raid has about a 400 paycheck that they can spend on what they want as long as they don't leave.
Post by
dashihawk
Why not just use loot council?
Maybe you're dpsing in the raid leader's blind spot.
Maybe you were disconnected.
Maybe you disconnected yourself.
Maybe you have a completely overpowered and decked out ret paladin doing 30k dps. (... It seems like it, anyway)
Maybe the raid leader doesn't like your accent.
Maybe the raid leader loves your accent.
Maybe the raid leader is angry.
Maybe the raid leader is happy.
Maybe you have that special item that he's been seeking, so he's angry at you.
Maybe you don't have that special item that he's been seeking, so he's happy with you.
Maybe he doesn't know that melee have to move out of the Lightning Nova in the Emalon encounter.
Maybe he does know that melee have to move out of the Lightning Nova in the Emalon encounter, but just doesn't like you.
Maybe he thinks that he can make a whole lot more use out of the item then you can.
Maybe he thinks that you can make a whole lot more use out of the item then he can.
Maybe he doesn't like your class because they destroy him in PvP.
Maybe some player didn't get what he wanted, and thought he deserved the item, and nerd raged and quit the guild. And, made a bunch of other people quit as well. Then there would be no loot council to council loot to.
... That's why!
Maybe you're dpsing in the raid leader's blind spot.
-If you were in a blind spot then your damage would still be shown on a damage meter.
Maybe you were disconnected.
-You should not be able to get loot if you DC'd in the begining of the fight
Maybe you disconnected yourself.
-You would be retarded and i wouldn't want you in the raid anyway
Maybe you have a completely overpowered and decked out ret paladin doing 30k dps. (... It seems like it, anyway)
-Everyone knows Ret DPS is sub par now
Maybe the raid leader doesn't like your accent.
-Shoulda been born a southern girl.
Maybe the raid leader loves your accent.
-Were prolly born a southern girl
Maybe the raid leader is angry.
-That is why it is a loot council. The officers should be there aswell to discuss who it is best for
Maybe the raid leader is happy.
-I don't know a good raid leader that lets happiness show
Maybe you have that special item that he's been seeking, so he's angry at you.
-Well then you are screwed
Maybe you don't have that special item that he's been seeking, so he's happy with you.
-What special Item are we talking about? seriously there are sights you can get a look at those items for free
Maybe he doesn't know that melee have to move out of the Lightning Nova in the Emalon encounter.
-Not all melle does. I know for a fact rogues can fient and make the damage negligible
Maybe he does know that melee have to move out of the Lightning Nova in the Emalon encounter, but just doesn't like you.
-see response 7 above
Maybe he thinks that he can make a whole lot more use out of the item then you can.
-see response 7, and 12 above
Maybe he thinks that you can make a whole lot more use out of the item then he can.
-Then you are getting the loot and what does it matter?
Maybe he doesn't like your class because they destroy him in PvP.
-see response 7, 12, and 13 above
Maybe some player didn't get what he wanted, and thought he deserved the item, and nerd raged and quit the guild. And, made a bunch of other people quit as well. Then there would be no loot council to council loot to.
-learn to speak da english. sei amigo. oi vey.
There are responses to everything you have worries about. Loot council is the best unless you are pugging. that is because if you are using DKP you will inevitably have someone that is able to make all the raids and then you will get that poor soul that can only make certain times because his momy doesnt let him play past x time.
In case you were wondering i don't speak spanish or french. and if you do then go ahead correct my grammar or spelling.
+1 trolling
Post by
dashihawk
@Kevinno
You have a good system and if it works for you then go ahead and use it. For me it would be near worthless since I am never running anything with the guild I just throw together a naxx25 run whenever I feel like it. and it would be a pain getting 24 people to go along with something like this. it is just easier and more convenient to say /rw MS roll
Post by
kevinno
Maybe you're dpsing in the raid leader's blind spot.
-If you were in a blind spot then your damage would still be shown on a damage meter.
Maybe you were disconnected.
-You should not be able to get loot if you DC'd in the begining of the fight
Maybe you disconnected yourself.
-You would be retarded and i wouldn't want you in the raid anyway
Maybe you have a completely overpowered and decked out ret paladin doing 30k dps. (... It seems like it, anyway)
-Everyone knows Ret DPS is sub par now
Maybe the raid leader doesn't like your accent.
-Shoulda been born a southern girl.
Maybe the raid leader loves your accent.
-Were prolly born a southern girl
Maybe the raid leader is angry.
-That is why it is a loot council. The officers should be there aswell to discuss who it is best for
Maybe the raid leader is happy.
-I don't know a good raid leader that lets happiness show
Maybe you have that special item that he's been seeking, so he's angry at you.
-Well then you are screwed
Maybe you don't have that special item that he's been seeking, so he's happy with you.
-What special Item are we talking about? seriously there are sights you can get a look at those items for free
Maybe he doesn't know that melee have to move out of the Lightning Nova in the Emalon encounter.
-Not all melle does. I know for a fact rogues can fient and make the damage negligible
Maybe he does know that melee have to move out of the Lightning Nova in the Emalon encounter, but just doesn't like you.
-see response 7 above
Maybe he thinks that he can make a whole lot more use out of the item then you can.
-see response 7, and 12 above
Maybe he thinks that you can make a whole lot more use out of the item then he can.
-Then you are getting the loot and what does it matter?
Maybe he doesn't like your class because they destroy him in PvP.
-see response 7, 12, and 13 above
Maybe some player didn't get what he wanted, and thought he deserved the item, and nerd raged and quit the guild. And, made a bunch of other people quit as well. Then there would be no loot council to council loot to.
-learn to speak da english. sei amigo. oi vey.
There are responses to everything you have worries about. Loot council is the best unless you are pugging. that is because if you are using DKP you will inevitably have someone that is able to make all the raids and then you will get that poor soul that can only make certain times because his momy doesnt let him play past x time.
In case you were wondering i don't speak spanish or french. and if you do then go ahead correct my grammar or spelling.
+1 trolling
Loot council is bad on all levels, it boils down to the players opinion which is not to be trusted. There are too many holes in a person's moral that they cannot be trusted being the sole decision maker in a loot situation.
Post by
kevinno
@Kevinno
You have a good system and if it works for you then go ahead and use it. For me it would be near worthless since I am never running anything with the guild I just throw together a naxx25 run whenever I feel like it. and it would be a pain getting 24 people to go along with something like this. it is just easier and more convenient to say /rw MS roll
This is what I am saying, the system would work fine for PuGs OR Guild runs, the fact that it incorporates DKP is just a better way of doing things.
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