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Mp5 and Spirit
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Post by
Geno
Before I begin, I want to say this: If you come to this thread to say "ZOMG MP5 / SPIRIT IS BETTER, DO IT CUZ I SAY SO" crap, please don't. If you haven't gone with a form of Spirit regen based build and a mp5 based build at some point, your opinion will be bias and void. And not to discourage people, I want to at least ask for those that have done some kind of raiding to provide feedback - Much of the gear I'm using is of the Tier 5 quality level. If you haven't done some raiding, this whole argument would be different for you, since you'd either be PvP'ing or just instancing. Having 6-7 healers with a group of 25 is much different than 1 with 5 others.
That said, let my (insanely long) post begin:
Recently, we've gotten quite a significant buff to Spirit in the form that we've gotten regen bonuses. 30% Spirit active in combat in a talent tree that revolves around Spirit (Tree Aura, Living Spirit). And with the tree nerf (Putting on Spirit Gear -> Shifting to tree no longer works. And isn't a bug, to those that ask), having some Spirit for trees is the only way to go for their Aura.
As well, to those Dreamstate builds, they're going to get a lot of mp5 from Intellect (10% Int, too!), but at the same time, they now also have 30% Spirit regen... So they have a nice choice in itemization to go with a few different gems in gear, or enchants.
Basically, I've recently changed all my gems on my gear from the typical 9/2 to a 9/4 - That is, from a 9 healing 2mp5 gem to a 9 healing 4 Spirit gem. Why? Few reasons.
It scales with buffs.
It works extremely well with a hybrid build focused on regeneration through Spirit and the 5sr bouncing.
It's extremely fun to get about 120%~ mana back from an Innervate and be able to spamheal for a few seconds to give other healers a break to let them get outside the 5sr.
Basically, I've been running about 650~ Spirit raid buffed lately in a hybrid spec. Granted, I don't have tree aura, but frankly, don't need it. A lot of my raw healing power comes from being able to cast a few HoTs on the raid, then backup the MT Healers with Direct Heal Casting with HT. All while doing this, I'm able to bounce the 5sr while cast-canceling the MT, and letting HoTs tick away. Rejuv is reduced cost, as well as Healing Touch thanks to Moonglow and Tranquil Spirit (At least for HT there). And with Living Spirit and a crapton of Spirit, I'm getting about 550-600 mp5 outside the 5sr for the duration.
However, I could go another extreme and maximize my mp5 and go with heavy mp5 while casting, in order to basically be a Bloombot and spam Lifebloom to death, yet never run out of mana, and in some cases, gain it! However, I'd also have to give up Swiftmend and Living Spirit to dig down and get Dreamstate. I'd basically use my normal healing Rotation, with the exception of Swiftmend (Which is actually a good chunk of my healing, since it's so dang efficient to not be off cooldown).
So I've gone through a few different phases in my healing, and this is my personal look at it (Now that the long intro is over /rofl)
I honestly think that so far with gems, you could go any route. I've ran with Royal Nightseyes for a long time (9 healing, 2mp5). That was up until the recent patch and the 30% buff. Before that, anyone would have been called crazy to use anything else (Beyond trees stacking Spirit in Red slots. In Blues, you'd want Sparkling Star of Elunes for the maximum Spirit). I was actually amazed at a few things I noticed:
I actually didn't change much in terms of how much I regen in combat. That is, for how I dodge the five second rule and jump in and out at key times, I was getting roughly the same amount of mana, plus or minus 5 percent depending on the fight itself
My Innervates were a lot heavier now. Regemming all the mp5 to Spirits, I got a net gain of over 40 Spirit due to talents and buffs. That means a little extra mana while Innervating. I actually overburned myself a few times, even when solo'ing and just using it as a regen tool between mobs.
While locked in spamcast (That is, continous casting), I noticed a slight downgrade in my return, which would still be shown, even with maximum raid buffs. However, it wasn't at the return I saw before - I still was able to keep casting a few seconds later. Now, it's just timing everything to get regen ticks, exit the 5sr, and then start casting again, and getting pot cooldowns up to keep moving.
Compared to mp5, the gains were actually enough to outweigh the differences. Stacking more Spirit and ditching the mp5 gems yielded quite a nice return, especially in raid environments where it was heavily noticed. The only bad time I saw it were fights like Vashj phase 2/start of 3 where I'm in a spamcast. I noticed my regen was down there. However, through the rest of the fight - I was up a bit. It evened out nicely.
Has anyone else got some thoughts on this? With all the recent buffs to Spirit regen through talents, I feel getting mp5 gems or Spirit gems has started to possibly (In certain cases) tipped towards Spirit now - Especially with Living Spirit and the ability to dodge the 5sr. If you're constantly casting, it's obvious Mp5 would be better for you. But what about the Hybrid Efficiency builds?
Thanks for taking the time to read this, and I hope it lets you think it over.
Reminder to those that missed it: If you come here to say that Spirit is better or mp5 is better without having tried both, your opinion is again, biased. Please do your testing and not just theorycrafting - It would be appreciated ;)
Post by
105626
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Celdhyrean
He got 40 additionnal spirit from regemming, it's a slight buff to other healers (+10 healing) but I wouldn't call that a deciding factor.
I'm not a healing druid myself but i saw some theorycraft showing that spirit was still somewhat lower in regen than mp5 but had caught up a fair bit, making the case much more difficult to decide. Which is basically what you're stating from your experience
My opinion is that mp5 should still be better for trees since they should never be out of the 5SR (unless the fight prevents permanent casting obviously).
Post by
Geno
as far as spirit vs mp5 goes in my opinion im a tank so it may not be valuable to you but wouldnt tree form spirit be better? i mean u get a healing buff that applyies to the whole raids healers if your in the tanking party. its true that on your own mp5 would be better but in a raid setting your stack of spirit helps everyone it may only be a little bonus for you but add that togeather with the little bonus from all the other healers and that makes up for it.
its the same reason we always bring a dis/holy priest for the spirit buff, the greater good.
now if you have anothe druid giving there aura then i say just do what works for you, but i always say the raid is about helping all 25 people so think what helps them more.
Tree would be better in some situations, however, the way I play my spec, and the way our raid is setup, we've had exactly zero issues with anything. The way my raid runs me is more of a Pally-esque role - That is, direct healing spam, supplementing with HoTs, like any good Druid should. However, when major spike damage on the raid happens, I can immidiately shift over, begin spamming LB, then swap back to the tank flawlessly, not having to ever shift, use trinkets, or anything.
We also run just two Druid in our raids - Funny enough, the second being a Moonkin (Another discussion altogether there). So I'm really the only Resto. We run two Priests two/three Pallies, and a Shaman. So in reality, any Hots I'm taking Swiftmends from, or healing will be my own - No HoT sharing.
Lastly, you say that a Disc / Holy spec is like the "Greater Good spec," as if it were bad - Last I checked, one of our Priests is able to not only keep up, but also blow people out of the water on some bosses here and there. And honestly, every healer in our raids is the same way. I don't think there's one healer that is better than the rest for us - We all have fights we top, and there's fights we all have to compete for top healing, top mana regen, etc, too.
Basically, I understand that tree would be benefiting from all the Spirit, however, I'm relating this to overall return in regen, not in terms of healing - That is, has anyone seen an increase in regen using Spirit versus mp5 and had enough guts to regem or try out using a Spirit-based regen method versus an mp5 one since the patch?
He got 40 additionnal spirit from regemming, it's a slight buff to other healers (+10 healing) but I wouldn't call that a deciding factor.
I'm not a healing druid myself but i saw some theorycraft showing that spirit was still somewhat lower in regen than mp5 but had caught up a fair bit, making the case much more difficult to decide. Which is basically what you're stating from your experience
My opinion is that mp5 should still be better for trees since they should never be out of the 5SR (unless the fight prevents permanent casting obviously).
Theorycraft, yes. Most Theorycraft bases Spirit regen at 30% all the time, as well as 80%+ casting inside the five second rule, just because most Theorycrafters are doing it for trees, which are almost permanently inside the 5sr due to Lifebloom rolling. However, if played properly, dodging the 5sr would let you get even below 65% if you do it properly, timing proc's of Blue Dragon, the trinket off Gruul (-450 off next spell - Since it would make Bloom or a low rank Touch cost nothing, it keeps you outside the 5sr), and the like.
I'm well aware as to what most people "Theorycraft." But in actual practice is what I'm looking for. But I do understand completely what you're saying.
Post by
Forerunner
In my experience, its better to have a reasonable balance between mp5 and spirit than to absolutely stack one. Since I am still in Kara, and most heroic and Kara gear is sta/int/spi/+heal, I get plenty of spirit from my gear, and I gem/enchant for mp5.
In order to make spirit truly worthwhile, though, you need a Blue Dragon or Bangle.
Post by
Miyari
My wall of text on the subject
.
Personally I've been thinking about switching over to more
Teardrop Crimson Spinel
depending on the loss of socket bonuses. I have 224 mp5 atm which I feel is way more than enough, and raid buffed my Spirit, while lowest of the three stats, is still more than enough when paired with raid buffs. If I really want to rely on Spirit I can always switch to my
Etherium Life-Staff
for a bit. I pretty much covered my opinion in my original post but I do want to agree that I don't feel stacking any one particular attribute is ideal. A strong balance of healing/mp5/spirit works wonders once you get the gear to supplement it well.
Post by
Geno
In my experience, its better to have a reasonable balance between mp5 and spirit than to absolutely stack one. Since I am still in Kara, and most heroic and Kara gear is sta/int/spi/+heal, I get plenty of spirit from my gear, and I gem/enchant for mp5.
In order to make spirit truly worthwhile, though, you need a Blue Dragon or Bangle.
As of right now, most of my gear is actually quite balanced. I run the ZA Staff gemmed with 9/2 | 4/2 | 9/2 to keep socket bonus while keeping the raw mp5 on the staff up to an insane level. But I also run CasterWeaponSwapper to pop on my Spellsurge weapon (Currently Light's Justice with Voodoo Shaker offhand) to pop Surge then go back to it. Whenever I break the 5sr for an extended period of time (IE: Kael 4-5 transition), I hit my Etherenum with +20 Spirit and just chill and regen (Or Dreamless in some cases).
Overall, though, much of my gear has both Spirit and mp5, both from gems and gear itself. And of course, depending on the fight, I do have raw mp5 items or raw spirit items to bounce with.
My wall of text on the subject
.
Personally I've been thinking about switching over to more
Teardrop Crimson Spinel
depending on the loss of socket bonuses. I have 224 mp5 atm which I feel is way more than enough, and raid buffed my Spirit, while lowest of the three stats, is still more than enough when paired with raid buffs. If I really want to rely on Spirit I can always switch to my
Etherium Life-Staff
for a bit. I pretty much covered my opinion in my original post but I do want to agree that I don't feel stacking any one particular attribute is ideal. A strong balance of healing/mp5/spirit works wonders once you get the gear to supplement it well.
Going with Teardrops would be good if I had the gear to support it - But at the moment for me, if I stripped off my gems, I'd lose close to 25~ mp5, my Meta, and only gain about 80~ healing in raid environments.
One of the key things about Spirit versus mp5 and Healing is that it scales. And it scales well for a Druid. We get 15% more from talents, as well as getting Kings and Divine Spirit in raids, which returns damage / healing. Being able to load up buffs, having something scale is awesome. I use and abuse that to no end.
Overall, though, I also agree some kind of mix is needed - There's always ways to min / max from gear here and there, just finding the mix is the hard part. I just wish it actually scaled beyond just Spirit. :-/
Post by
103972
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Geno
One of the keys I rely on is that I have two talents that benefit from Stats: Living Spirit and Lunar Guidance. This is what slightly weighs in when I pick gear, and often proves one piece better than another.
Druids get a 4.5 to 1 Spirit to Regen ratio. This is a little worse than Priests at first, but we also gain Living Spirit from Restoration, which lowers it closer to their regen rate. In doing so, picking up Bangle, Blue Dragon, or anything that lets you potentially evade the 5sr lets you get a good chunk of regen in at a time. That is when spirit becomes worthwhile in picking up, since you'd get full 100% Regen from Spirit versus the 30% in combat.
Stacking mp5 is worthwhile if you're constantly castlocked and can't break it (Fights like Tidewalker come to mind if you're spamhealing the MT with only 5 or 6 healers to increase raid DPS - Gogo speed clears). This is when Spirit only becomes partially useful for Innervates and trinkets and such. Beyond that, you'd get very little use out of it, even fully raid buffed.
Overall, I think splitting it is key, I just haven't really hit a "Concise" percent to split, that is, do I go 70% Spirit, 30% mana per five? 50 / 50? 10 / 90? There's so many questions, and I know it would vary by gear - I'm just curious if anyone's come up with a good thought on how to maximize Spirit while keeping some mp5 up.
'Course, now the real question would be who here actually has a hybrid build for healing that still includes Swiftmend but not tree. I feel like an outcast in this thread already for the cookie cutter trees >.<;
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