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Lvling - Retribution or Protection ?
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Post by
MischievousLoki
You guys are getting quite off topic here.
The issue is leveling as prot, especially from a low level (the OP is 30). You don't even get half the spells you guys are talking about for another 30-45 levels.
Post by
JemiS
At similar gear levels, Ret has more burst than Prot.
Yeah, you can get huge HoTR/SoTR crits, but you can also get huge DS/Judgement crits. I've seen crits for over 12k with judgements.
Of course, this will change to some extent in 3.2, but since no one is really sure how much, speculation is relatively pointless.
Post by
Synectics
For the OP, so they don't have to keep reading: play what you like. I'd suggest Ret and just roll through quests, but then, that's just what I prefer. If you want to AOE level, by all means Prot wins hands down.
Wait, what? Retribution for PvP. No question.
...
I see Protection Paladins on occasion in BGs. They aren't a threat. They are not a threat.
LOL.
No, seriously. LOL.
Hold on, still LOLing.
...okay, I'm done. No, wait...
LOL.
Whew. Wow. I feel better. Thanks for that.
svirve said it best. Prot is FULL of survivability and burst. At 80, I lead in Most Damage Done more often than not with my Protribution build. Of course this isn't be-all-end-all, but it certainly says something when I can pull that off as Prot and can't as Ret.
Plus, let's not forget that Prot is ten-times better against a caster. Avenger's Shield silencing and a 20 second cooldown on HoJ is amazing for taking down those casters and kiters. Svirve listed all the great damage-reducing talents we get, and it makes a huge difference -- so much more than the AoW FoL's.
If you're still doubting this, I suggest you check out the
Protribution Guide
. We're not the "minority" when we say this.
Post by
svirve
Yeah, you can get huge HoTR/SoTR crits, but you can also get huge DS/Judgement crits. I've seen crits for over 12k with judgements.
Sorry mate but this isn't 3.0.x anymore.
If you see a judgement critting even close to 6k nowadays (in PvP where resilience does alot) your gear has to be unimaginably awesome.
Just to clarify why.
Seal of Command has the most hard hitting judgement, top end damage is as follows:
Lets assume our suggested paladin is very into PvP and has furious gladiator gear.
Here
's the profile i'll use.
Assuming he's attacking an average PvP player. 600 resilience (armor doesnt matter since SoC is holy damage when judging).
0,24 * 1057 + 0,16 * 4129 + 0,25 * 1238 = 1223,82
Adding talents to that:
6%,6%,3%,9%(full stack of veng.)
1223,82*(1,06*1,06*1,03*1,09) = 1543,81
Now since judgements count as melee attacks when it comes to crit we'll add some more.
(1543,81*2)*1,03 = 3180,24
And then we have to remove the effect of 600 resilience(16% dmg reduction).
3180,24 * (1-0,16) = 2671,4
So in order to do your supposed 12k crit with judgement you would need:
Either a weapon with roughly 19,000 top end damage and the above profile.
Or 22314 AP which also gives you 6694 SP.
I admit this is not with wings but hey.. do you really think that wings are going to change these numbers that much for it to be imaginable?
Edit:
For reference, you need about half of that to do a 12k crit with AS. And with AS your weapon damage doesnt matter.
I agree with Loki. And i'll stick to my previous statement and take my cute ass out of here.
Post by
Brique
How are you at the top of damage meters? Paladins are known to be floundering when compared to other DPS in similar gear in their ideal spec. If you have stupid DPS that can't find Mind Sear or Blizzard for trash (Superior AoE!) and stupid DPS that can't find a simple EJ thread to point them towards better management of cooldowns and spells you'll never find yourself at the top. Protribution is a great choice for tanks that aren't going to get dual spec, but it's generally more helpful to the raid to have the superior damage and buffs that Retribution possess. So build an offspec, have your gear ready and enchanted properly. A few months ago in my offset Naxx 10 gear with my own buffs I was pulling 2.7k DPS. I don't assume it has changed, mostly because I do not DPS in raids. I never exactly did.
That 35% in Ardent Defender comes in at the time that some classes have access to another attack like Execute or Hammer of Wrath, to lay in the hurt and finish the fight a bit quicker, because if you're at 35% and they're not dead, you might as well be dead. I've noticed that as Retribution, between Art of War procs, Sacred Shield absorbs, Divine Protection/Shield, timing my healing between interrupts, and timing my CC for when they will use their high damage abilities to attempt to finish me off, I'm never going to be at 35% unless in all likelihood I'm going to be sent to the graveyard.
I'm not exactly going to pick apart your post svrive, because that'd be rude. I'm not going to insinuate that you're a bad player, or don't even play a Paladin, because that's offtopic on top of being rude. Instead I'm going to attempt to explain that in Player-Versus-Player, the goal is usually to kill the other player. In BGs this is replaced by objectives, and making sure your enemy is completely clueless as to when they're team is losing. Usually distracting them means you have to be a threatening target, or a hopelessly weak one. Still, if you're not killing anything you're probably going to be ignored. Getting to the top of the KBs on a BG will make you a very valuable target. I've never seen a Paladin equiped with a shield doing this. Human players are very keen on messing up your attempts to AoE them down or protect yourself from their own damage. Blowing CDs and trinkets has always been necessary to kill other players! All classes do this! You have access to them, and when you can use them, you should. What stupid player wouldn't pop Avenging Wrath when they see the perfect opportunity? It's a 3 minute cooldown and those "perfect opportunities" happen constantly! Resto Druid shifting out to caster form to Cyclone? STUN! Avenging Wrath! Leather armor is weaker than their other forms, and it's your golden opportunity to put some damage on them. Even if they don't die, they're going to be concerned with topping themselves off for a few seconds, and if there's another enemy around that could take some damage, he won't be getting healed! Retribution can pull at least 8k damage on a target with a good Resilience rating in this situation. If they trinketed out of my stun, then I was being stupid with my Repentance cooldown, or they're intelligent players and will cause a problem.
Again, Retribution just rips through zones. It's a very good choice for single-, two-, or three-pulling mobs. Usually you can handle more, with a bit of Seal of Light on your Divine Storms, Crusader Strikes, and Melee hits. You're going to have no downtime provided you didn't need to heal yourself to the point you went OOM. AoE grinding depends on respawn rates and your Rested/Heirloom XP to be effective. Questing is freeform, allowing you to skip certain ones that you just don't like, even providing alternative zones if one's overpopulated or simply boring. Patchwise, Retribution leveling has never been nerfed since 3.0.
Post by
16310
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Synectics
Even when playing in full retribution PvP gear it is not really possible to kill a warlock, mage or priest as protection.
Wait, what? I think you're mistaking us for someone else here.
An additional downside for protection is that it is dependent on having Divine Plea active while in combat to regain mana, which halves your healing power and really kills survivability.
This is a very good point. It's hard to keep the mana flow going in combat. However, this doesn't "kill survivability." A Prot Paladin isn't healing while in combat, and therefore, doesn't care about having half-effective heals. Ret focuses on those AoW procs -- Prot focuses on just not getting hit hard in the first place, which we do quite well.
...whereas the only damage increase in protection is from the 10% one-handed specialization. So 10% vs 24% in base increase.
Don't forget Reckoning, which is much more necessary in PvP than it is in PvE. But I think you're looking at this the wrong way. Even without those talents, we still hit like trucks. Ret -needs- those talents to hit decent at all.
Of course, this is just in theory. In practice I find PvP as retribution a breeze and as protection it can get much more annoying, especially due to those pesky casters.
Ret is faceroll, of course. But if you're having trouble against a caster while Prot... well, I hate to say it, but... URDOINITWORNG. :P
Post by
Synectics
How are you at the top of damage meters? Paladins are known to be floundering when compared to other DPS in similar gear in their ideal spec.
If you're asking me, then I'd point out that I was referring to BGs, which again, are not the be-all-end-all of how good a spec is with damage. But like I also mentioned, I rarely am able to do this as Ret. Perhaps I play a little looser while Prot, knowing I can take quite a few more hits than as Ret -- I don't know.
...I'm never going to be at 35% unless in all likelihood I'm going to be sent to the graveyard.
Sacred Duty, Redoubt, Guarded By the Light, Judgements of the Just (twice as many stuns = less damage taken), Shield of the Templar... add those up, and let me know how much less damage a Prot is taking at
all
times.
I'm going to attempt to explain that in Player-Versus-Player, the goal is usually to kill the other player.
Which Protribution Pallies can do VERY well. But go ahead, continue.
Usually distracting them means you have to be a threatening target, or a hopelessly weak one. Still, if you're not killing anything you're probably going to be ignored. Getting to the top of the KBs on a BG will make you a very valuable target. I've never seen a Paladin equiped with a shield doing this. Human players are very keen on messing up your attempts to AoE them down or protect yourself from their own damage.
Couple things:
First, see above about Prots being efficient killers.
Second, I personally have seen myself very high up on the KB list. The beauty? On the PTR, I get to enjoy 50% extra honor from being on an objective while doing so (I'm not a nub who just goes for KBs in the middle, TYVM) so I also have led in Honor Gained.
Third, I very, VERY rarely will throw out a Consecrate, and not because any decent player will hop out of it. It's a huge mana waste, and doesn't really add up that much more damage. The only time I'll use it is when I have, for example, a rogue and warrior on me. They won't kite out of the Consecrate, so might as well get the damage I can out.
Blowing CDs and trinkets has always been necessary to kill other players! All classes do this! You have access to them, and when you can use them, you should. What stupid player wouldn't pop Avenging Wrath when they see the perfect opportunity?
You make it sound like Prots don't have trinkets or CDs.
Retribution can pull at least 8k damage on a target with a good Resilience rating in this situation.
Maybe you're not understanding that a Prot Pally can do just as much, if not more with a lucky string of crits.
...Patchwise, Retribution leveling has never been nerfed since 3.0.
Agreed. I would never be able to level as Prot, because I love just blowing through quests, and as Ret, you WILL do it much better, which is how I answered the OP's original question. But you're trying to say that Prot is this horrible spec that shouldn't ever be used in PvP, and there's PLENTY of us who /facepalm because it's painfully obvious how wrong this is.
To quote myself from the Protribution guide:
Is it better than Ret?
WHO GIVES A %^&*?
There's nothing that says, "Well hai thar" as well as a shield to the face from twenty yards out.
:D!
Which I stand by. Ret may be better in certain situations -- yes, I love a good HoJ + Repent combo, and I have always been a Ret before Prot. But saying that Ret is the ONLY PvP choice is... well... just stupid, given the facts and plenty of examples. :P
Post by
MischievousLoki
AgainYou guys are getting quite off topic here.
The issue is leveling as prot, especially from a low level (the OP is 30). You don't even get half the spells you guys are talking about for another 30-45 levels.
Post by
16310
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
106394
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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