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Kitty advice wanted.
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Post by
Lemonz1919
I'm a fairly avg. geared feral dps, but I feel that I should be doing better dps than I currently do. Right now on a boss where I have time to build up I manage 5k at best in 10 man buffs. I've seen cats doing much higher damage in the close to the same gear.
Armory:
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Cenarion+Circle&n=Lemonz
Spec:
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-talents.xml?r=Cenarion+Circle&cn=Lemonz&gn=Knights+of+Anarchy
As for my gear I know I'm well over hit cap but any upgrades I tend to find only give me more hit. Also no need to say anything about the blue gems I'm currently trying to replace them with honor.
I start my fights with FF running in then Mangle>Rake>SR>Shred>TF>Shred(until 5 cps)>Rip
I usually have to replace SR after. Even though I have fairly high crit I almost never find the time and cps to FB outside of Berserk. If I do try to get a FB off I find myself out of energy cps and end up either having Rip or SG drop off my target, sometimes both.
I have a couple of questions.
When during a boss fight is the best to use Berserk?
When is there still enough time to get off FB, besides berserk?
Also any spec, gear, or any kind of advice you can give will be greatly appreciated.
Post by
hashmel
Change your meta to Relentless Earthseige Diamond.
Put your Nightmare tear in the yellow socket in the helm.
Change your boot chant to Greater Assault.
Change your wrist chant to Greater Assault.
Change your glove chant to Crusher.
Change all your gems except the newly socketed Nightmare Tear to agility
or
armor pen, if it's a yellow socket with a 6+ agility bonus a Deadly gem is acceptable.
Can pull 3/3 from Improved Mangle for 1/1 Feral Charge and 5/5 Feral Aggression.
Continue these trends with any upgrades you get.
You've got Pounce, it can only be used once per fight but don't forget about it.
I pref to open with Pounce > SR > Rake > Mangle > Shred (to 5 CPs) > Rip... so the initial rake benefits from SR. If you can't get pounce in then Mangle > SR > Rake > Shred (to 5 CPs) > Rip...
I'm a main spec bear/offspec boomkin/sometimes cat so take this for what its worth.
Post by
344751
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
111707
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Kciroj
Just a small correction:
Flayer's Black Belt
drops in PoS normal, not heroic. Just look at the ilvl and you should know.
You should consider getting another piece of T9 for the set bonus.
Edited to add: Did anyone actually answer your first two questions?
When during a boss fight is the best to use Berserk?
You should use Berserk whenever available, unless:
You have less than 85 energy,
TF will be available in 15 seconds,
Or if you're saving it for a specific occasion (i.e. Weakness state (Icehowl) or special ability (Twin Valkyr shield)).
When is there still enough time to get off FB, besides berserk?
You can do a FB, only if
You have 5 combo points,
You have at least 5 seconds of Rip or Savage Roar left,
The two don't both expire in the next 10 seconds.
Also, NEVER use FB during Berserk; You'd be wasting energy. After it expires and the above conditions apply you can use FB.
Yet another edit: I think you'll find a lot of valuable information
here
, or in the form of this educative movie
here
.
Post by
MegaVolt
Also, NEVER use FB during Berserk; You'd be wasting energy. After it expires and the above conditions apply you can use FB.
Agreed on the rest but this is wrong. Using FB, even with full energy, still is a dps gain. Not using FB during Berserk will be a giant waste of combo points since you are generating so many of them ... what else to do if not FB? So go ahead and FB during Berserk.
Another thing to keep in mind is that having Rip drop for a few seconds is not bad. Just like all DoTs Rip has awesome "damage per time spent casting" but quite a low dps. Losing 1-2 ticks of Rip is very much worth it if you get the full FB damage in return. Just make sure SR never drops and your Rip doesn't drop for more then 3-4 seconds if you FB.
Gemming ArP or agil doesn't really matter that much. Both are so close ... gemming agil will give you more crit, meaning more combo points meaning more FBs. Gemming ArP will give you more direct damage and less crit, meaning less combo points meaning fewer opportunities to FB. So in the end ArP might even make for an easier rotation since you have to worry about FB a bit less.
About the spec:
Feral Agression is about 0.2% to 0.3% dps per talent point. It is almost worthless. Take one point out of there at least and put it into Feral Charge. That will help you a lot to increase your time on the boss, it is a significant "damage done" boost (e.g. after an Icehowl knockback or fast switching to a Mistress or for add killing on Lady Deathwhisper and so on).
The remaining two points can stay in Feral Agression. Or you could be very nice to your healers and put them into Nuturing Instinct. The healers in your guild will absolutely love you for it. Just wait until you get your first Mark of the Fallen Champion in ICC and be happy that they can easily keep you alive ;)
Both ways are valid, being a resto main spec I'd probably go with Nuturing Instinct to help out my fellow healers. A dead cat doesn't do any dps.
Post by
Kciroj
... what else to do if not FB?
Shred. You don't have to use your combo-points.
It costs 21 energy and, with bleeds/mangle, deals 351% weapon damage plus 1694. In the case of my druid, that'd be roughly 4.3k damage per 21 energy = 205 dpe.
A 5 CP Ferocious Bite costs 18+30=48 energy and deals - damage. In the case of my druid that'd be an average 4.6k damage per 48 energy = 96 dpe.
I'm not taking crit modifiers into account now, so that puts FB at an unfair position.
So, I have around 50% crit, so FB has a 75% chance to critically hit. Crits deal 237.8% normal damage (Predatory Insticts + Meta), so recalculating for critical damage:
Shred: 205 dpe * 0.5 + 205 dpe * 0.5 * 2.378 =
346 dpe
FB: 96 dpe * 0.25 + 96 dpe * 0.75 * 2.378 =
196 dpe
Even so, you are right to some extent. If you use FB with less than 30 energy it will be a dps increase during berserk.
Post by
Aadramelekh
Also, NEVER use FB during Berserk; You'd be wasting energy
is also the advice I give to newbie feral druids that ask me about DPS cycle.
Kciroj
is right on this one. Shred spam while having Rake and Rip rolling during Berserk is the best DPS possible, leaving FB for the point where you have less than ~17 energy left if possible. The combo points overflow is not a bad thing during Berserk and most likely Rip or Savage Roar will need refreshing quite soon after Berserk ends, so having those 5 CPs stacked there helps ease the DPS cycle.
However, one small detail. Critical hits do not deal 237.8% damage. Basic critical hit is 200% damage. Predatory Instincts gets that up to 220%. Meta (+3%) further raises the value to 226.6% - which should be the actual value of critical hits for any aspiring pussy cat.
Post by
MegaVolt
... what else to do if not FB?
Shred. You don't have to use your combo-points.
It costs 21 energy and, with bleeds/mangle, deals 351% weapon damage plus 1694. In the case of my druid, that'd be roughly 4.3k damage per 21 energy = 205 dpe.
A 5 CP Ferocious Bite costs 18+30=48 energy and deals - damage. In the case of my druid that'd be an average 4.6k damage per 48 energy = 96 dpe.
I'm not taking crit modifiers into account now, so that puts FB at an unfair position.
So, I have around 50% crit, so FB has a 75% chance to critically hit. Crits deal 237.8% normal damage (Predatory Insticts + Meta), so recalculating for critical damage:
Shred: 205 dpe * 0.5 + 205 dpe * 0.5 * 2.378 =
346 dpe
FB: 96 dpe * 0.25 + 96 dpe * 0.75 * 2.378 =
196 dpe
Even so, you are right to some extent. If you use FB with less than 30 energy it will be a dps increase during berserk.
You are saying a full CP FB will only do 4.6k damage for you while Shred does 4.3k? Your calculation has to be seriously off. That's just impossible.
Some smart guy on EJ has calculated that FB, even used at max energy, is still a dps increase if none of your DoTs drop (which is basically guaranteed during Berserk). Your numbers seem wrong and I believe in EJ ;)
Here is the topic:
http://elitistjerks.com/f73/t63774-cat_dps_guide_dummies/
5. FB is most efficient when used at 35 energy. It gets worse when you spend more, thus making it least efficient when using with 65 energy.
6. A 5 CP FB is always more efficient than a shred, even when used at 65 energy.
Post by
Kciroj
However, one small detail. Critical hits do not deal 237.8% damage. Basic critical hit is 200% damage. Predatory Instincts gets that up to 220%. Meta (+3%) further raises the value to 226.6% - which should be the actual value of critical hits for any aspiring pussy cat.
Indeed, @#$%ed up maths there.
5. FB is most efficient when used at 35 energy. It gets worse when you spend more, thus making it least efficient when using with 65 energy.
6. A 5 CP FB is always more efficient than a shred, even when used at 65 energy.
This is correct, however you forget that this is under normal conditions,
not during Berserk
.
Post by
111707
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Kciroj
Once again, this isn't about
combo points
, but about
energy cost
. During Berserk FB costs much more energy than Shred if you allow the 30 energy to be coverted to damage. This results in it being a dps loss over using a 21-energy Shred.
Reread the posts, try to understand my calculations, and if you still can't figure it out I don't know how to explain it anymore.
Post by
344751
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MegaVolt
Makes sense. With the Shred cost halved it will have a great damage per energy ratio and the "bonus" AP that FB eats will not be halved, giving it a much worse damage per energy ration.
Still, at 18 energy FB is very much worth it. During Berserk it should be just extra important not to have high energy when using FB.
Now I'm wondering ... what exactly is the maximum possible energy to have during Berserk for FB to be superior to Shred? At 18 it obviously is, at 100 it isn't anymore. There has to be a break point even in between ... anyone know that value?
Post by
Aadramelekh
Let's try some napkin math here...
First let's set the conditions: full armor penetration on the boss (so full damage by abilities), 11500 AP (raid buffed I get around this value frequently, give or take, depending on the food and elixir / flask choice). The average base melee value (normal damage) with 11500 AP will be 876.
Ferocious Bite
(5 CP) will do 5595 - 5735 damage plus ~37 damage per energy point up to 30 extra energy. I'll use the maximum value for the base damage, 5735. Increased by Savage Roar + Naturalist, it does 8201 plus ~53 per extra energy point. With Feral Aggression, 9431 plus ~61 damage per extra energy.
On normal conditions, FB costs 35 energy. Used at this value, it will do 269.45 DPE. With 1 extra energy it will do 263.66 DPE. With 2 extra energy, 258.18 DPE. Used at 65 energy, FB does 11261 damage for 173.24 DPE.
The general formula is that, with "x" extra energy, FB will do (9431 + 61*x) / (35+x) DPE.
During Berserk, FB costs 18 energy (rounded up). So it has a base DPE of 523.94 (!). Used with 1 extra energy, it will do 499.57 DPE (24.36 DPE loss =O). With 2 energy, it does 477.65 DPE (21.92 DPE loss). At 48 energy, FB offers a DPE value of 234.
During Berserk, the formula changes to (9431 + 61*x) / (18+x) DPE.
Shred
will do 2637 base damage. Naturalist + Mangle + Bleed + Savage Roar raises this value to 5882.
Shred will offer 140 DPE during normal cycle and 280 DPE during Berserk
So our quest is to find out how is Ferocious Bite's DPE compared to Shred's DPE depending on the "x" extra energy value used during normal cycle and during Berserk. I'll round the values for easier math.
Normal cycle
: FB offers a max DPE value of 269 (35 energy) and a min value of 173. Shred offers 140 DPE. In this case FB@5CP > Shred from 35 to 65 energy. Of course, it is always advised to use FB as close to 35 energy as possible for max DPS.
Berserk
: FB offers a max DPE value of 524 DPE (18 energy) and a min value of 234. Shred offers 280 DPE.
So here we want to find the "x" extra energy for which FB DPE offers greater benefit than Shred's DPE. So we want to find "x" for which
(9431 + 61*x) / (18+x) > 280
. For this to be true, "x" has to be lower than 20.
Conclusion: during Berserk, FB DPE will be greater than Shred DPE
only when FB is used with as much as 19 extra energy
. It is once again advised to use FB as close as possible to its 18 energy cost during Berserk, because of the steep DPE loss incurred per each extra energy point.
Note: without the Feral Aggression talent, the DPE of Ferocious Bite drops even more. So the recommendation to use it as close to 18 energy as possible is even stronger here.
Post by
Slimda
During berserks, I'll get a fresh Savage Roar, a fresh Rip, and then have a couple of seconds left on Berserk. In these seconds I'll use Ferocious Bite on the absolute minimum of energy. Losing a second or two of Rip uptime isn't catastrophic, but can be avoided with careful planning.
Post by
344751
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
243176
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
111707
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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