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Is every undead minion of the Lich King being held against its will?
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Post by
Cross88
I'd always assumed the various undead minions of the Lich King, like abominations, ghouls and skeletons, were just as evil as him.
I can imagine certain minions like death knights, and the people who ended up becoming the Forsaken, needing to be mind-controlled because they weren't always Scourge soldiers, but things like abominations, who have spent their entire existence as undead minions, should be evil to the core.
But then I do a quest in Icecrown where you touch an abomination, a banshee, and a geist with a rod that frees them from the Lich King's will, and they all immediately join your side.
So what's the deal? Is every single Scourge soldier I've ever killed since Deathknell just a poor victim being compelled against his will? Are vrykul and the members of the Cult of the Damned the only true servants of the Lich King? That doesn't seem to make a lot of sense.
Post by
Skreeran
Well, if you think about it, Abominations are rather dumb. They're actually almost childlike. I wouldn't say that they were being controlled against their will, but rather, their will itself is being manipulated. They can't tell the difference between right and wrong, so all the Lich King has to do is give them an order and take away their ability to say "no." They'll happily direct their attention where he wants it. Once you free them, they'd just be the same, although I would imagine they'd be much more easily distracted and less focused.
Banshees on the other hand, would be entirely driven by revenge. They are the spirits of High Elves slain by the Scourge and are forced to serve the Lich King. Look at Sylvanas. She was a Banshee after all.
Geists are hanged criminals. You get the same thing. Being people (selfish people, in fact) at one point, they probably wouldn't want to serve the goals of one guy, and would certainly be happy to be out from under his will.
As far as Ghouls and Skeletons, they literally have no mind left (or at least very little mind left), and have basically as much say in what they do as a pawn on a chessboard does. That would explain why they serve Death Knights without question.
Post by
HoleofArt
I'd always assumed the various undead minions of the Lich King, like abominations, ghouls and skeletons, were just as evil as him.
I can imagine certain minions like death knights, and the people who ended up becoming the Forsaken, needing to be mind-controlled because they weren't always Scourge soldiers, but things like abominations, who have spent their entire existence as undead minions, should be evil to the core.
But then I do a quest in Icecrown where you touch an abomination, a banshee, and a geist with a rod that frees them from the Lich King's will, and they all immediately join your side.
So what's the deal? Is every single Scourge soldier I've ever killed since Deathknell just a poor victim being compelled against his will? Are vrykul and the members of the Cult of the Damned the only true servants of the Lich King? That doesn't seem to make a lot of sense.
You also have to remember those 3 were very important lieutenents for the Lich King's hold on the Shadow Vault.
As such, they were smart.
And smart enslaved people usually would like a nice chance at revenge.
Post by
Cross88
You'd think that by bringing back these creatures from the dead, the Lich King could instill some form of
permanent
control over them.
It just doesn't seem right that every sentient minion of the Lich King is an unwilling slave. Theoretically, you could arm the entire Argent Crusade with rods of compulsion, and instead of killing the Scourge, they just turn everything over to their side.
Post by
Skreeran
You'd think that by bringing back these creatures from the dead, the Lich King could instill some form of
permanent
control over them.
It just doesn't seem right that every sentient minion of the Lich King is an unwilling slave. Theoretically, you could arm the entire Argent Crusade with rods of compulsion, and instead of killing the Scourge, they just turn everything over to their side.Well, some are willing, like Orbaz Bloodbane, but most are innocent people who were killed by the Scourge, and as such, would want revenge for it.
The Rod that was used was apparently rather hard to obtain.
Post by
warlock454
I have other questions. Does Frostmourne claim the souls of the people slain by the Lich King? If a soul-less body is animated, can it ever be freed from the clutches of the Lich King since the soul is still safely stored inside Frostmourne?
In the Wrathgate cinematic, we see Saurfang the Younger's soul absorbed into Frostmourne (yet his body isn't immediately turned into Scourge due to the Forsaken assault).
So, I guess, these are the questions.
Do some retain their souls when they are made undead? Sylvanas clearly did. It wasn't inside Frostmourne.
Is the taking of a soul required to turn one's body into Scourge?
Are the soul and body two separate things or are they one and the same?
From various other quests unrelated to the Lich King, it does appear that the soul can survive the body (even if you ignore the in-game death mechanic). Too many quests involve the soul or spirit of some long dead character.
What I don't know is the state of the soul of most of the Scourge. Do abominations have souls? They are made up of the physical remains of other fallen people, not the spiritual remains. If long-buried skeletons are re-animated, their souls likely would have been someplace else in their eternal resting place. Do their souls know that their bodies - or what is left of them - have been reanimated? Do their souls immediately return to their bodies, regardless of their state of decay?
Post by
atkrei
most are being held against their will, but i think the cult of damned are actually living ppl that want to serve arthas
Post by
188262
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
Abominations are stitched together pieces of other people, you see evidience of that in the slaughter houses and the like. Patchwerk, Rammstein, Vile and those two elites on in Ghostland's are speicalized ones, they were given intelligence to better lead the abomination armies but for the most part, the abom's are just weapons to be pointed at the mounted troops and let go.
As for skeletons it depends on the type: You see the champions and caster types all through out Scholomance, Stratholme and the Plaguelands, there actually dangerous. Then you see the cannon fodder; the simple walking bones, easy to make and easy to kill.
Nathrezim are the Burning Legion leiutents, they were his jailor's not part of the Scourge.
Post by
389776
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
Well slain by the Lich King(it's not arthas anymore heh), or slain by any of the incredibly talented Necromancers in the Lich King's employ. After all, Kel'thuzad raised the four horsemen and broke their spirit's but they still have free will to fight as they wish without being commanded by a higher ranking Scourge.
Post by
389776
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
twinkinshammy
thaddius looks like he's held against his will since he's made out of the skin of women and children... (Ewwwwww....)
Post by
Patty
Also, when we defeat Anub'arak in AN he says something along the lines of: "I am...finally free...of him..." Although we find out that Azjol-Nerub was merely a setback.
In addition to that:
Anub'arak: The nerubian race, yes. Then the master came. As his influence spread, we made war upon him, foolishly believing we stood a chance. Many of us were slain and raised into undeath. In life I was a king. Today I am a crypt lord.
Kel'Thuzad: In return for immortality, you agreed to serve him. Remarkable.
Anub'arak: 'Agreed' implies choice.
So, some are conscious, others are not.
All however, have their minds controlled and their anger sated by the Lich King.
Well, those under his control anyway.
Post by
realta
Most of his power force don't have a will of their own- that's why the Forsaken's struggle to free themselves of him is so massive.
His higher-ups, though, like death knights, are completely in control of themselves. That's why DKs go through quests of retribution and feel so "emo"- they were completely aware of their murderous tendencies, and now have to own up to that reputation.
Post by
Adamsm
Biggest thing for them is actually simple: Scourge like Kel'thuzad love it, they enjoy being undead. Other's like Zielik are being forced to kill and fight, all depends on what type of person they were before their deaths at the hands of the Scourge forces.
Post by
neoscorpio
Those that aren't mindless seem to wind up opposing him eventually. Forsaken, Nathrezim, Death Knights, etc.
uh nathrezeim are agents of the burning legion, most of them sent to watch ovr the activities of the scourge, so technically they are demons
Post by
Lionsprey
i belive it to be simelar to the case with abominations writting above said by skreeran
so all the Lich King has to do is give them an order and take away their ability to say "no."
if the role requires intelegence to do they retain their "mind" however they cant say no when he commands them to do things. something thats easy to make like a skeleton or a ghoul most likely doesn't retain much of it "mind" (if they did indead contain none then we would all be playing death knights and abominations) however something that you cant raise by the hundreds by visiting a battle field is most likely going to posses somewhat intellegence (even if its just to know what to smash and what to not smash)
about the question concerning souls and such
it really is a bit fuzzy in my opionion since arthas apperntly loses his soul when picking up frostmourne ( at least i belive thats what his dwaf companion said however it might just be an expresion) however he can still act as if he didn't
Post by
Delgado
Most of them have no will, for they are Arthas's playthings. When they were raised, the Lich King wiped their mind of personality and most memories, thus making them his creatures. As for mildly free-willed subordinates, they follow the Lich King unquestioningly, unless they can be freed of his grip upon their minds. Some serve him because the pledged themselves willingly, such as Ras Frostwhisper, and so retain the intelligence and follow his orders be cause the
want
to.
This may be wrong, it may be right, it's just my opinion.
Post by
360643
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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