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Instant poision, PPM and Combat rogues
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Post by
344618
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Post by
blackmarquetbaby
i think you have the wrong idea about PPM mechanics.
Post by
344618
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Post by
286500
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Post by
blackmarquetbaby
This definitely belongs in a theory crafting forum, but I will answer to the best of my ability.
A PPM enchant (including mongoose, beserking, and now Poisons) is a buff, debuff, DOT, or damaging attack with occurs a certain number of times per minute regardless of weapon speeds. The procs do however coincide with damaging melee attacks.
So. Weapon "a" with speed 2.6 in the main hand with instant poison will proc 10 times per minute.
Weapon "b" with speed 1.4 will proc 10 times per minute as well.
Prior to the changes predicted to be put in place for 3.1, the proc chance for poisons was a percent chance on hit. Effectively this meant that on each hit, there was a chance to apply poisons. This mechanic could basically be chalked up to RNG and modifiers.
You can imagine the chance to hit as a 100 sided di. If the chance was 50% than any roll OVER 50 would proc a hit. This is the case with wound poison. If the chance was 20% (as is the case with IP) any roll OVER 80 would proc on the hit. Obviously, it is easier to roll 50+ than it is to roll 80+.
Blizzard never intended for the poison mechanics to roll out so that WP>IP w/out speccing for it. The reason that this is the case is that WP has a higher proc rate AND due to changes in 3.0 damage from poisons scales with AP. The scaling mechanics of WP ended up being > than IP due to the percent proc and superior scaling with AP.
With a PPM mechanic attached to poison enchants, this should no longer be the case. Even though WP may proc more often per minute, and still scale with AP better, The actual damage output of IP with be superior to WP even at 2 or 3 fewer procs per minute.
Post by
blackmarquetbaby
This definitely belongs in a theory crafting forum, but I will answer to the best of my ability.
A PPM enchant (including mongoose, beserking, and now Poisons) is a buff, debuff, DOT, or damaging attack with occurs a certain number of times per minute regardless of weapon speeds. The procs do however coincide with damaging melee attacks.
So. Weapon "a" with speed 2.6 in the main hand with instant poison will proc 10 times per minute.
Weapon "b" with speed 1.4 will proc 10 times per minute as well.
Prior to the changes predicted to be put in place for 3.1, the proc chance for poisons was a percent chance on hit. Effectively this meant that on each hit, there was a chance to apply poisons. This mechanic could basically be chalked up to RNG and modifiers.
You can imagine the chance to hit as a 100 sided di. If the chance was 50% than any roll OVER 50 would proc a hit. This is the case with wound poison. If the chance was 20% (as is the case with IP) any roll OVER 80 would proc on the hit. Obviously, it is easier to roll 50+ than it is to roll 80+.
Blizzard never intended for the poison mechanics to roll out so that WP>IP w/out speccing for it. The reason that this is the case is that WP has a higher proc rate AND due to changes in 3.0 damage from poisons scales with AP. The scaling mechanics of WP ended up being > than IP due to the percent proc and superior scaling with AP.
With a PPM mechanic attached to poison enchants, this should no longer be the case. Even though WP may proc more often per minute, and still scale with AP better, The actual damage output of IP with be superior to WP even at 2 or 3 fewer procs per minute.
Post by
Meggie
Procs per minute is no biggie, one just needs to keep more weapons in stash. With every proc equip a different slasher. Go go Wound Poison .
Post by
236413
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Post by
299264
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236413
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331702
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Post by
blackmarquetbaby
tested it last night. WP>IP without imp. instant poison. about 40-50 dps greater. For OH I tested DP vs. WP and DP came out at 100 dps greater than WP.
Same shows for spreadsheet
I am using Crimson Steel in MH and LPC in OH.
edit: unbuffed vs. dummy.
Post by
Howlle
i used IP and WP on the trash for Thorim.
IP did far more than WP although WP did ofc proc more, the dmg was greater with IP.
so whether this was just pure chance, it appears IP/DP are the greater pve poisons for all specs.
Post by
blackmarquetbaby
i used IP and WP on the trash for Thorim.
IP did far more than WP although WP did ofc proc more, the dmg was greater with IP.
so whether this was just pure chance, it appears IP/DP are the greater pve poisons for all specs.
numbers don't show this is true. IP procs less often than WP. The AP coefficient does not make up for the lack of procs, and the DPS for WP is still greater than IP (see my post above) WITHOUT improved poisons, so this only goes for COMBAT ROGUES, not MUTILATE ROGUES.
Also, on trash for thorim, were you using FoK? What was your up time on thorim? Even when it is less than 90% uptime it should be that WP procs more often and therefore would be MORE effective when not on boss as much.
Just explain to me HOW IP>WP when the numbers show otherwise. Do you have IMP poisons?
Post by
blackmarquetbaby
The number of ppm for ip and wp is as listed.
IP: 8.57 ppm without improved poisons
IP: 12.86 ppm with Improved poisons (5-points)
WP: 21.43 ppm
The number of ppms will be increase by haste effects such and SnD, the new Lightning Reflexes, Blade Flurry, Windfury totem, Improved Icy Talons, and Bloodlust/Heroism.
As an example if you were under the effects of SnD 40%, Windfury Totem 20%, Lightning Reflexes 10%, and Bloodlust 30% your new ppms would be as follows.
IP: 20.57 ppm without improved poisons
IP: 30.86 ppm with improved poisons (5-points)
WP: 51.42 ppm
Note the proc chance to scales higher with slower weapons in the case of wound poison on a 2.8 weapon the chance to apply is 100%, but instant poison without improved poisons proc chance would be 40% and with improved poisons (5 points) would be 60%. Deadly poison is still on a flat chance to apply as well as all other poisons
PPM no longer uses % chance to apply but is normalized to weapon speeds. 2.8 weapon speeds do not have a "100%" chance to apply WP, but rather apply every swing (unless poison is resisted or misses). IP does not have a "40% chance" to apply, but will apply to 40% or 2/5 (2 of every 5) swings. The tooltip no longer reads with a percent chance to apply.
The DPS increase is normalized for IP and WP, and will always increase by that amount, with the exception of being talented in Improved Poisons.
instant poison tooltip
has changed in 3.1 and no longer contains the "20% chance"
Post by
CeeKay
If no imp poisons then MH is WP.
if yes imp poisons then MH is IP.
Any spec this is true.
CK
Post by
Howlle
well i did say it might have been pure chance.
and i'm combat
but i'm big enough to admit i made a mistake.
my recount was bugged >.<
Post by
ElusionPDX
so for a mut rogue with imp poisons whats the best ip/dp, dp/wp, dp/ip?
Post by
Howlle
mut with imp poisons is still ip/dp
don't think it matters now due to the proc chance changing and shiv not critting anymore as to whether you do ip/dp or dp/ip.
Post by
CeeKay
mut with imp poisons is still ip/dp
don't think it matters now due to the proc chance changing and shiv not critting anymore as to whether you do ip/dp or dp/ip.
it does matter.
IP on MH slow high DMG/DPS weapon. DP on OH fast weapon. if you have imp poisons. Replace IP with WP if you don't have imp poisons.
If your goal is maximizing your damage output, then your MH weapon needs to be your higher DMG weapon.
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