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Improved Faerie Fire
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Post by
birrd
I was looking at Balance Druids on the armory and I noticed that almost none of them take Imp. Farie Fire. I was wondering why this was the case since it seems to be a very powerful talent for raids and even five-mans/heroics to a lesser extent.
I understand that the talent is deep in the Balance tree and doesn't offer almost any personal benefit. Is this the only reason for skipping it?
It seems that 3% +hit for your entire raid would out-weigh the personal downsides of the talents. Two key factors come to mind in terms of raid benefit.
1. Significant raid DPS boost - Unless most/all of your melee DPSers and Hunters are at hit cap for bosses this talent would increase all of their DPS substantially. Perhaps in very hardcore raiding guilds you can expect all your DPSers to be near or at hit cap for bosses but I know in my guild many DPSers fall short of that mark.
2. Increased threat for tanks - My main is a Prot Warrior so I am painfully aware of the lack of +hit on tanking gear. This talent provides a large amount of added hit which would increase threat generation for tanks significantly. This provides a higher threat-ceiling for DPSers to nuke a bit more.
I have a Druid alt and I'm considering checking out Balance so I was looking into Balance talents more than I had in the past. This talent seemed like a true gem for raiding but it seems like even most of the raiding Moonkins don't have it. I was hoping some experienced Druids could shed some light on this topic.
Thanks!
Post by
Robyn
The problem is mainly in the minds of raiders who spend too much time watching the damage meters... usually it goes something like this: we're taking a Moonkin druid, he's in a mage raid slot, he'd better be doing the same damage otherwise he's not pulling his weight! Raid guild politics ftl.
Now, Moonkin rely on the +spellcrit aura to make up for slightly lower personal damage, at least until you get to 1200 +spelldamage. That means that you're always playing catchup, because even though your total damage contribution is *higher* than the mages' after the aura is taken into account, on the damage meters your aura is boosting *their* dps and it looks like you're actually doing less. How's that for irony.
Then Imp FF comes along, and is positioned in such a place that you have to sacrifice some more personal dps to take it, by missing out on subtlety or intensity or dps talents inside balance. So watcha gonna do?
In an ideal world, raid leaders would realise that moonkin personal dps + party aura + imp FF = win, and gently apply The Steely Rod of Disciplined Good Practice to the damage-meter watching numpties, but unfortunately many raid leaders don't do so, and we're forced to compromise by taking personal dps talents over raid ones.
Post by
Robyn
It's interesting to contrast that with shadow priest and feral druid... shadow priest with Vampiric Embrace and Vampiric Touch has some very good, very visible benefits which don't alter the dps balance.
Feral druid is kinda a mix, giving the crit aura similar to Moonkin but to melee and a healing aura somewhat similar to Vampiric Embrace. It's a better mix because Imp LotP is a very visible benefit... I think people tend to forget about the crit aura even there.
Blizzard would probably have been better off giving Moonkin a mana-restore aura, rather like Imp LotP but then for mana. It would have been a much more popular talent than Imp FF.
Post by
Riven
Robyn is probably right. In a lot of cases people are focusing primarily on meters and monitoring the performance of individuals rather than of the overall raid group. The same is sometimes said for hunters putting talents in expose weakness or improved hunter's mark. While I think it is overall more beneficial to buff the entire raid group, most people are more inclined to go with what makes them alone perform the best they can. (And with competition from mages, I wouldn't blame the average moonkin for doing whatever they can to maximize their dps.)
Post by
Celdhyrean
Another problem of IFF is that most dual wielding classes (which are the main one getting the benefit from it) will (or should) already be at their cap. Be it because they did it before you arrived or because the moonkin can't be present at each and every single raid.
So this undercuts the most obvious benefits of the spell (even though the increased tank threat might be the biggest boost overall).
Post by
Jaru
Speaking from a pure PvE spec moonkin's perspective now: I'm 43/0/18 (
click
) and I don't think I can spare a talent for Imp FF. Okay, I could've taken 2 points out of Brambles, but I opted to increase Thorns' damage to provide the tank with a weebit of extra aggro as most of our (raiding) melee dps is near hit cap or capped already. There's no talents to spare from Resto as I need the threat reduction (gj on that Blizz -.-) and mana regen. Taking any other Balance points would cripple my damage - and if I spec for PvE I'm expected to do damage as someone above wrote.
The other problem with FF is applying it as a moonkin. It would break my damage cycle if I did, but I'd get used to that. What puzzles me is why the heck did Blizz put a talent (a 3-pointer even!) that buffs melee so deep into a
caster
tree?! I mean ferals use it all the time, why not putting imp. FF there as an improved version of Faerie Fire (Feral)? Not logical.
To compare it's like putting Stormstrike to the Elemental shammy tree.
Post by
Jaru
One thing I gotta say tho, the transition through the first 3 tiers of the Balance tree is absolutely dreadful. You're forced to waste at least 3 useless talents if you want a PvE build. Blizz should either make Entangling Roots usable indoors or change that - and even in that case the use of Control of Nature is questionable.
Post by
Robyn
Good point.
Control of Nature and Brambles definitely are very dubious talents for a PvE build. Nature's Grasp and Nature's Reach have their uses, but if Improved Fearie Fire was down there, a lot more people would take it in preference... then again, many more hybrids would pick it up as well. I think the problem is more in the positioning of other talents.
Post by
Riven
Jaru, I agree so much. As a feral, I would LOVE to have improved faerie fire. A lot of feral druid aimed gear (not rogue gear) is very low on +hit rating, so the hit increase from imp FF would be awesome!
Post by
Xsound
I think this problem can be fixed, but some would disagree (as allways) with my solution.
First Brambles and Controll of Nature switch places in the balance tree. Then Imp. FF switch place with Brambles.
As a PvP moonkin, you will take nature's grasp anyways, making you get to the next "stage", and then take Controll of Nature.
So brambles gets very very deep into balance (not many takes it, only pure PvEkins to get further down), and imp. ff would be worth taking since you "need" it to get further down in the balance trees. So PvPers can skip it, if they want to, and PvEers can get it easily, helps the entire raid and makes us more wanted.
Or you could just switch brambles and improved faire fire, but I dont think it'll work to great out of the PvEers..
Summary:
Controll of nature --> Brambles
Brambles --> Improved Faire Fire
Improved Faire Fire --> Controll of Nature
- As Eric Cartman would say: "Its like having your cake, and eating it!"
Post by
Robyn
It's not a bad solution xsound, but it puts Imp FF - which is supposed to be a balance raid buff meant to give an incentive to raid groups to allow dps-spec druids - so far down the balance tree that it's easily available to resto druids or hybrids. That's not likely to happen since it would become a must-have.
A better solution imho is to remove Imp FF and replace it with another talent in the same slot. Although that doesn't really solve the problem with the lower balance tiers, which need tweaking anyway.
Post by
Sgtown
The problem is to get imp. FF, you have to sacrifice either threat reduction, mana regen, spell efficiency, or damage.
I think it would be best to find some talent higher up in the balance tree, one of the damage or efficiency ones, and move that down to the first 3 tiers. You have to struggle to fill the first 15 points, but after that, you don't have enough points to get everything! This would allow you to spend closer to the 5 minimum points per tier past tier 3, and not waste any of the first 15 points.
Keep imp. ff high up in the tree, just put a talent like balance of power or moonfury in the first 3 tiers in place of one of the shitty talents, like brambles. then you can stick brambles high up in the tree and make it allow roots indoors or something. that or leave it alone or leave it out entirely. Then moonkins would be a little less talent point starved.
Post by
Kaitain
Just get rid of brambles i say and move FF there. Where FF was put something cool, like maybe 3/3 Imp Dancing :-P
Post by
mgp84
I was looking at Balance Druids on the armory and I noticed that almost none of them take Imp. Farie Fire. I was wondering why this was the case since it seems to be a very powerful talent for raids and even five-mans/heroics to a lesser extent.
I understand that the talent is deep in the Balance tree and doesn't offer almost any personal benefit. Is this the only reason for skipping it?
It seems that 3% +hit for your entire raid would out-weigh the personal downsides of the talents. Two key factors come to mind in terms of raid benefit.
1. Significant raid DPS boost - Unless most/all of your melee DPSers and Hunters are at hit cap for bosses this talent would increase all of their DPS substantially. Perhaps in very hardcore raiding guilds you can expect all your DPSers to be near or at hit cap for bosses but I know in my guild many DPSers fall short of that mark.
2. Increased threat for tanks - My main is a Prot Warrior so I am painfully aware of the lack of +hit on tanking gear. This talent provides a large amount of added hit which would increase threat generation for tanks significantly. This provides a higher threat-ceiling for DPSers to nuke a bit more.
I have a Druid alt and I'm considering checking out Balance so I was looking into Balance talents more than I had in the past. This talent seemed like a true gem for raiding but it seems like even most of the raiding Moonkins don't have it. I was hoping some experienced Druids could shed some light on this topic.
Thanks!
Honestly: Most T5/6 DPS are already hit-capped and tanks have no need to pump out extra aggro since they are holding it just fine. Points invested into increasing YOUR hit cap (which is what I would do) have a better effect. Now if we are in T4/Teen levels, then sure that is a talent that Moonkins will want to take.
PS: This talent should either be moved (to feral tree) or reworked to fit into spells.
Post by
ignis86
possibly replace feral faerie fire with imp faerie fire aka combine the two?...
so that FFF does the same thing as IFF
currently the only reason i have feral faerie fire is to pull with while in bear form... yes it free threat and armor reduction... but i just dont care enough about it to be SURE its on all the time
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