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Hybrid Dps vs. Pure Dps, the Broader View
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Post by
179128
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Post by
Erlinn
The debate for Pure vs Hybrid dps is old and lengthy. On one end, you have us, druids, warriors, and pallys (shut up and faceroll, DKs), who cry out for higher dps. On the other end is the rogues, mages, hunters, and warlocks, telling us to stfu and that we should have higher dps because "we can do other things".
TBH, the "utility" arguement is moot. It was thrown out the window the second VE was changed and its basic, albeit new, function was given to other classes. Replenishment, in my opinion, killed the whole arugument that hybrid dps, or at least spriest, should sacrifice damage for utility. I would GLADLY sacrifice damage for utility, if I HAD ANY. And if you ask me, being able to change specs, gear, and everything else to heal is NOT utility. I should be able to dps, do it decently (I'm not asking for top of the charts, just nothing laughable), and not be persecuted because "I can also heal".
A lot of people argue that if hybrid dps did dps just as well as the pures, no one would play the pures, and there is some truth to that. Why level a rogue if you can level as a druid, who gets most of the rogues same moves, but can also heal himself or even slap on what is basically plate armor (see: Bear form) when the going gets tough? The answer is: you wouldn't.
So there is some credance to the idea that if you play a pure DPS, that's what you should do; pure DPS. But as of right now, the balance is off. By a great margin, actually. Pure DPS SHOULD, in all fairness, do more damage than hybrids. But only by a small percent. The chart should read:
1. Death Knights
2. Pure
3. Pure
4. Hybrid
5. Hybrid
NOT
1. Death Knights
2. Pure
3. Pure
4. Pure
5. Tank
4. Bad Pure
5. Healer
6. Basic Campfire
7. Hybrid
Or even the other way around. It's jsut a question of balance, and it's something we know Blizz knows about and is hopefully something they'll either fix or come close to fixing in Cataclysm.
But I guess we'll see.
Post by
179128
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Post by
300899
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Post by
Erlinn
I disagree with your point of "If hybrids could outdps or do similar dps as a Pure then no one would role Pures". Its very simple really. PvP mechanics also play a factor in what people choose to roll. Its also a factor of role-play. Rogues are sneaky, dual-wld daggers and what not. They have alot of tricks up their sleeves and each spec is unique to each style. You like stealth go subtlety, you like weapons galore go Combat etc...People do actually play the game because its fun you know. Not because they want to be FoTM.
You're absolutely correct, and I don't think I worded what I mean very well. People would still play rogues if feral kitties did equal or more damage as them endgame, but I can guarentee that the number of rogues would drop by a dramatic number because of the sheer level of easiness leveling a druid is compared to level a rogue. I don't actually believe this myself, but it's a popular argument against hybrid vs pure dps. While you're correct and not everyone plays to be top of the damage charts or FotM, people will look at their character and go "well, if druids can do all that AND still put out more dps in the same style I enjoy, why am I playing this toon? /reroll"
Post by
ande9249
as to the 2/3 healing focus, lets consider how much disc actually IS a healing tree vs being a utility tree (since both holy and shadow builds take practically the same 14 talents in disc unless they want to go heavier in their own tree)
we have 5 tp at tier 1 for 5% damage AND healing, 2 tp at tier 6 for 4% damage AND healing, 3tp at tier 7 for 10% crit chance on FH, 2 tp tier 8 for penance CD reduction, 2 tp at tier 9 for 9% healing on a focused target, and then the 51tp spell that heals AND damages....so.. out of the 51 tp to get there only 15 actually go towards healing...yes I am excluding all of the shield buffing and damage reduction talents. Why? because it is different than healing. and personally I have constantly wondered about that tier 6 increase to damage...why, why do we get a damage increase there if it is supposed to be a Healing tree.
because before WotLK disc was a PvP tree, which was a design blizz had for alot of classes that they have one tree that has the tools to really do well in PvP, now they are shifting towards having each tree be valid in PvP and PvE when possible, which means that Disc being a second PvE healing tree wasnt really accounted for.
you say "make us better healers because two of our trees are healing while all other healers only have one tree" when the actual solution in my mind is "teach everyone out there that there are actually 5 healing classes now, restro duid, restro shaman, holy paladin, holy priest, Disc Priest" how many times have you had a holy priest and a disc priest in a raid simply because they brought a different set of tools?
There is also a logical break, A Spriest can break shadowform and cast some FH or a DH if the raid needs it, but a Demonology Warlock can not realize that the boss has rediculous armor and switch over to Chaos bolt, the frost fire mage cant do the high end arcane talents, a Fury warrior can't bladestorm and so on.
Then again, there is nothing stopping these "pure" dps classes dual speccing themselves and having that range of utility. Perhaps what blizzard was trying to accomplish with giving Warlocks the replenish buff was to give them a bone towards saying "hey i can switch and get a different raid buff if you like"
Do I agree that hybrid classes could have the same level of dps as pure classes, yes, but i see the solution not in a flat nerf to the pure dps, but rather with actual CREATIVITY in new buffs/utility for the pure dps to obtain while getting balanced in the dps. DPS in my opinion should be a matter of the player, but the utility, buffs, strategies, and so on should be unique to each class
P.S. I ave now intrigued myself with an idea of a hybrid type of play. Consider
this
not as a healing spec OR as a dps spec, but rather the 10th man in a 10 man raid. 2 (warrior DK) tanks, 2 (druid, holy pally) heals, 5 (hunter, lock, mage, rouge, Shaman) dps and this hybrid. The haste buff will help penance and Holy Fire alike, the shadow dots arent going to crit, but their mana reduction is impressive. Mana burn is there as well as Mass Dispell for those niche roles. the Focus target mechanic is almost BUILT for this focus the enemy, but shield the raid.....just a thought....
Post by
309579
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Post by
Synectics
so.. out of the 51 tp to get there only 15 actually go towards healing...yes I am excluding all of the shield buffing and damage reduction talents. Why? because it is different than healing.
how many times have you had a holy priest and a disc priest in a raid simply because they brought a different set of tools?
Consider
this
Well, good sir, I think it's safe to disregard absolutely EVERYTHING you have to say about Priests.
Disco's are MT/OT healers. Holy Priests are raid healers. Their trees are designed very differently for just such a reason (see: Penance and Circle of Healing, for quick and easy-to-grasp references).
So yes. There are "five" different healers in-game.
But to get back on topic.
I've always been on your side of this debate, Atremini, and I like your well thought-out discussion.
My reasonings in no particular order:
When spec'd into a tree, you are fulfilling only ONE role. DPS will not be a healer. A tank will not be a DPS.
Dual-spec and re-specing is completely changing your role. It's just as effective as kicking a member out and replacing them -- suddenly, a completely new position is filled.
Just because we "can" doesn't mean we "do." Yes, I could spec Shadow. But did I? No. I spec'd Disco. There's no reason my effectiveness should change because I
could have been
something else.
I
COULD
have rolled a Dranei and gotten a HoT as a racial. I
didn't
. Pures could have rolled a Hybrid. They didn't.
I'm just gonna stop there. Time for werk. Good talk, fellas.
Post by
ande9249
I think I have had disputes with you before synectics, And so would not like to in
flame
anymore. however, to any and all that read this thread hereafter:
The "P.S." in my posts is often off topic and more often whimsical and or a subject for thought, not execution.
Now I will stand by my statements that disc healers have a fundamental difference to them with all of the focus on preventing damage rather than healing damage. That this difference can be seen in BOTH raid healing and in MT healing is also apparently evident.
I do see now that I was contradicting myself in saying that there are 5 classes of healers, and then stating that disc was not really a healing tree. I am sorry.
and for any who like to see what I actually run with,
here you
go
. and if it pulls up a shadow spec, just click over to the disc.
Post by
91278
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144692
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Post by
karlusdavius
shadow priests have a tax? i just thought the scaling was off...
Post by
179128
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144692
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179128
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Post by
292117
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309579
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Post by
Erlinn
what i see in my adventures lately that mages,
DK's
, rogues and hunters rule the charts. hmmm, i think they're all pure dps...
i dont have a problem with pure dps is hitting more than hybrid.
If my
feral cat
is in trouble, i heal him. if my mage is in trouble i have a problem... so my survivability is greater with my hybrids than with my pure dps chars. yeah if that comes with less dps im cool with that :)
...since when are Death Knights and Feral Druids pure dps classes?
Post by
292117
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Post by
387103
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