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How to recognize a DK tank.
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Post by
cawfee
Hey all,
I'm actually just visiting here myself and have never played a DK, but I'm instance-leveling a priest (71 right now) and have ran into an insane number of Deathknights that are just god-awful at tanking despite their claims. I've had Deathknights gemmed fully with Spell Penetration, DKs that piled all their points into Frost and called it a day, ones that lost half their health to a hit by a
trash mob
and generally forgetting to use DnD during pulls.
My question is, how do I spot a -good- DK tank talent-point and gem wise? I remember a rule of thumb from a while back saying that if they're specced in 5/5/5, they're good to go regardless, but I fear that may be outdated with the many recent changes. I've had a couple great DK tanks as well, one of them was Blood spec, the other Frost, but I don't recall their builds. I'm a tad tired of joining groups and taking 3 pulls to learn that my tank is an idiot, so any help is appreciated :)
Thanks in advance!
Post by
238149
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Post by
341986
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146856
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Post by
anywherenotes
The 5/5/5 is a great rule, but most times you don't need it.
I did have it when I originally leveled my DK tank, but now leveling a resto druid (72 now) I haven't seen a DK tank with those points, and most are still fine.
I would just look at HP and level. We had a level 68 DK trying to tank UK. I was in my moonkin spec, so I didn't have to heal him. I did leave after a wipe on first boss, and I would have left way before if I was healing. He just couldn't survive a trash pull. The two hunters had to CC the mobs, since tank actually died on most pulls. So after tank would die, hunters would start CC, and we burned down trash. This obviously couldn't work for the boss.
Anyway, besides that terrible experience, DK's are fine as long as you check their level and HP. I would say at 70, they should have around 12k in frost presence, and that's good enough for Nexus and UK.
If he's not popping D&D, just tell him to. On my server finding a tank is a pain, so I can't be too picky.
Having DK main, I can give some advise, but basically as long as D&D is down, agro should be ok. And HP check before going inside.
If HP looks low, I would just say that I think my healing isn't good enough to heal a tank with 9k hp (or whatever he has), and find another group, or just solo-quest. On my server they could probably find a healer faster than a tank, and maybe if you're really good you can keep low-hp tank up, but I try to be truthful with my ability.
Post by
TheOnyx
People are going to argue these points, but having played a DK tank in 10-mans, here is what I would want out of a DK tank:
This
basic starting spec. Note the minor glyphs. I consider those two useful for tanks. The third is arguably enough that I don't consider one to be standard for tanks. Major glyphs will vary based on which tree the Death Knight uses to finish their spec.
Someone using a 2-hander rather than a DW spec (which
should
natually lead to maxing out
. People will argue this up and down, but my opinion is that
Dual Wield
is only viably used by DPS Death Knights (and even then it requires a good bit of
min-maxing
). Until they "fix" DW, you spend item budget trying to hit the target that you could spend elsewhere.
540 defense. You
can
get away with 530 in Heroic 5-mans, but getting 540 is easy considering
Rune of the Stoneskin Gargoyle
. You
could
have a lower defense and use
Sigil of the Unfaltering Knight
+
as your rotation starter to get you to 540, but my personal preference is to have the sigil add on to my 540 defense rather than get me to 540 defense.
40% avoidance (from dodge and parry). You can get away with 30-35% for Heroics, but 40% for 10-mans and beyond is pretty crucial.
Armor. Seems obvious, but for the sake of completeness, any DK who is't wearing full plate gear to tank is "Doing It Wrong". 60% mitigation is what I consider a minimum for a tank, but I shoot for 65%.
Stamina, stamina, stamina. 30k should be a good goal for 10-mans. However, I consider it a stat that is always a good expenditure of item budget. If I need to meet a red gem socket bonus, I'll put a purple gem in the slot that gives me +12 stamina and some other useful tank stat.
Expertise: I throw budget at this stat by way of socketing red slots with
Guardian's Twilight Opal
when I am not hurting for any of the other key stats. My expertise does not typically meet the tank cap (or the "attack from behind" cap for that matter), it's never been a huge issue to me.
There are one or two builds for DKs that benefit from haste but none of them are tank builds. I mostly consider it to be a stat where your points would be better spent elsewhere.
Boosting spell power or spell penetration should be avoided. Someone trying to boost these specs doesn't understand their class.
Someone with a high resilience rating is in PvP gear. Quick research shows that there
really
isn't
any
good PvP tanking gear. ;)
I know, I rambled, but I figure you can read the above, pick a few key points that you can easily identify when you inspect a Death Knight, and go from there.
Post by
146010
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Post by
Eleazer
Onyx, all your points above are spot on except the minor glyph area Glyph of Pestilence is not necessary at all for Frost Tanks, It's great for Blood, and is decent for unholy.
As for the general question as to how to find a good tank. Just because someone has a ton of health doesnt' make him a good tank, and spec helps but doesn't guarantee. When it comes to tanking, it's all about feel a good tank in my opinion can be a slow or fast puller, though I prefer fast pulls. As a tank myself, I pull as long as my healer has mana, and try to position the pulls so that I can keep an eye on healers and range dps. However that's usually not necessary, just born from years of experience as a healer, and never liked dieing because my tank wasn't watching. I have been told alot that I am too low to dps or tank an instance and then tanked it just fine. Alot of it is skill and if you can play correctly, you can tank an instance higher than you.
Tanks are like healers, not everyone can do it just because you are geared and specced properly. It requires feel, practice, and awareness. Sometimes I lose track of adds while tanking as I become absorbed in the fight at hand. There are base numbers to look for especially past 74. I tanked all the way up to Nexus in my dps spec with tanking gear, and most of the time was sitting around 430 defense rating. It helped I was with some pretty good dps, after that I had to get my spec and gear correctly.
Post by
383993
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Post by
Eleazer
Frost Tanks:
Improved cooldown on Death and Decay (Morbidity) isn't important because of the amount of runes required to cast DnD means that most tanks will only cast this at the start of the fight. On top of this most Frost tanks will substitute Howling Blast instead of DnD because the rune cost of DnD screws up Frost tanking rotation.
When in a lvl 80 PUG the warning signs I would look for are:
1 - DKs who don't have 5/5/5. It may not be required but it tells if you are serious about tanking or not.
2 - Frost Tanks or Blood Tanks who dont have Bladed Armor.
3 - Blood tanks who don't have Vampiric Blood, Mark of Blood and Will of the Necropolis
4 - Frost tanks who don't have Unbreakable Armor,Guile of Gorefiend, and Howling Blast
5 - Tanks who are not defense capped. Instant fail.
6 - Tanks who don't socket their gems or enchant their armor. Instant fail.
As a frost tank DnD is essential for the first pull, but Morbidity is not. I Use it for boss fights, but rarely use it after initial pull and then Howling blast after that. Every DK tank should use DnD to start there is no rotation that can not be benefited from DnD. And for frost don't forget about Imp Frost Presence
Post by
cawfee
Wow, that's an overwhelming amount of insightful feedback. Thank you very much, this has helped a great deal already and will also be a fantastic resource for when I finally do get around to making my own Death Knight.
You were all a huge help in getting me to understand the class a bit better C:
Post by
MegamanX400
This has also been helpful for me as an upcoming DK Tank, as a "what not to do thread" :p
Post by
138583
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Post by
Eleazer
DnD should always be used at the start of every single multiple mob pull
. It is the single best TPS per rune out there. If your dps is smart and focuses on the guy you are on than you will have all aggro before you do your IT/PS Pestilence beginning of your unholy tanking rotation.
Post by
238149
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Post by
383993
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Post by
Nystali
Wow...
I have never HAD to start DnD off on every pull, nor have I had to use it every single cooldown. I'd hate to see how you MT Heigan. In fact, leading up to Heigan, the fun grub room, I alternate one big pull with DnD, and then the next big pull starts with a HB and BB. Both cases, adds are stuck to me.
Frost can get away without using it and still build threat leads. Unholy maybe not so much. Blood maybe has to use for groups, but for bosses it shouldn't need it either.
Some pulls its convenient though. UK and UP are prime examples where its just easier to drop down a DnD since there are mobs that can stun you for a few secs.
What makes me cringe even more here is someone suggesting that DnD should be used every cooldown on a boss fight and that equals good tanking. I have never started a boss pull with DnD, nor have I ever had to. Imagine how many Obliterates and potential Rime procs you are wasting as frost if you're using DnD on every cooldown, even untalented, during a fight.
I think people need to get off the kick that DnD = Consecration.
I'm also very leery of anyone who suggests taking points in Unholy Command as a tank, especially someone who says that "5/5/5 is not necessary, it's just good to have. You can get away without blade barrier or anticipation if you have a spec that's tight on points." I very sincerely hope that you are referring to a leveling spec still with that statement because if your spec is tight on points at 80 because you needed Unholy Command then something is seriously wrong, especially considering Anticipation is the easiest place to dump points as a tank in order to even get to Unholy Command.
Blade Barrier is still very much a required talent as it provided damage mitigation with almost 100% uptime for a fight (if you're managing runes properly).
Toughness you said is good for the armor boost so I won't have to argue that. But why is armor boost good? Oh wait, it adds to mitigation? Then why wouldn't blade barrier be good? I'm confused.
Anticipation is avoidance. Dodge is good as you may complete avoid damage all together and its 5 free percentage points of it which would take a hell of a lot of gems and enchanting to make up for. Not to mention it helps proc Rune Strike more often.
Post by
Eleazer
I never said you have to use it I said you should use it before every multiple mob pull. You can pull anyway you please, but Threat generation wise there is no single higher tps threat per rune we have. Using it every cooldown is a bit of an over kill. I don't use it on every pull as a frost tank with Howling blast alot of times I pull with HB, but that's doesn't mean you shouldn't have it down for every long pull. Against bosses it's simply a nice way to jump your threat so dps can blow up sooner. Just because you don't have to do something doesn't mean it isn't the best way to do it. You might be very strongly geared, but for those of us who aren't not using the highest threat abilities is not very smart.
I use frost strike alot while tanking over the higher threat generating Rune Strike. Mainly because I like the dps and have enough threat usually on a character without need to do it, but does that mean I should do it. Tanking wise Rune Strike is better.
I will agree with you in the DnD every cooldown is redundant and not worth it. If you need to do it, you aren't doing your job as a tank. As for the last comment I am in whole hearted agreement with you on your last two statements. DnD is not consecration :P
Post by
Nystali
My post was more directed at Deathbunny. I should have done the proper quoting of his comments, many of which in this post and others regarding tanking having been driving me nuts lately.
I dunno how accurate the statement of highest TPS per Rune is. I do agree that its the best threat per rune ability there is. But I'd be curious if starting off (as frost) with HB->BS->OB->BS wouldn't end up being higher TPS compared to DnD->BS->(OB or HB or IT->PS). The reason I say this is that DnD doesn't front load its threat. If looking at both rotations and stopping the timer when you are done with runes and move to runic power, I might have more threat built up. But then if you go beyond that time when DnD has finished that rotation might have ended up more overall threat. That would mean that on my rotation the DPS could pretty much start as soon as I attacked and because I got a good amount of snap aggro and with yours they may have to still wait a second or two for a few ticks of DnD. Overall though, I think both strategies have built up a solid thread lead that would be hard for dps to overcome.
In any case, it is a much better debate than what Deathbunny has been proposing.
Post by
Kurtosis
What Nystali said. If you have any aspiration of tanking heroics and beyond, 5/5/5 is necessary (but not sufficient), especially after the 3.1.3 Frost Presence nerf back to 60% armor value from items.
Second, tanks don't need to be relying primarily on Death Grip to regain aggro on stray mobs. That's what Dark Command, Blood Boil, Howling Blast, Icy Touch, DnD, UB, CE, WP, etc. are all for - frontload and maintain as much AoE threat with the objective of preventing them from straying in the first place
If those cd's are up, or they're not working, and you're desperate, then yeah by all means, Death Grip that sucker off your healer or dps. But if that's happening so much that really need Unholy Command to reduce the cd, then either you're doing something wrong or your dps needs to learn the concept of focus-firing your marked target.
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