Holy Paladin - Methods for Mana Efficiency

Post by Aleanos

I believe OkieKuma just missed a zero there, the proper equation most likely uses "0.05" instead of "0.5" (since he's calculating the 5% mana decrease through Glyph of seal of Wisdom and the 4 piece T7 5% HL mana cost reduction).

Post by Rouen

I see. The question here then, which is the correct equation to follow?

The difference here is I calcuated the total 10% discount on holy light (not including the libram here) from the BASE cost. You are calculating it by using the 10% discount against the cost of holy light after the libram has removed 113. My paladin is not an 80 yet so I can't check it myself. Your saying that your spellbook actually shows the cost as 1044?

Post by 127934

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Post by 168581

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Post by Rouen

One thing that I always do but never see mentioned is get into melee range and just auto attack the boss or mob. I only do this on fights that I'm comfortable with and there isnt a lot of aoe damage or movement involved. The mana returns from seal of wisdom procing is insane. Usually an auto attack goes off between every one of my healing spells. I have finished some heroic bosses with my mana pool never going below 90%. This tip also works extremly well during trash portions so i never have to drink during an entire run.

Your right, the ORIGINAL purpose of my post was a statement of my goal and I wanted it to be scrutinized, so you wouldn't have seen it here. But you are correct in that it does return a lot of mana. From all the feedback I'm getting, this will probably evolve into a full out guide.

For some practice, I just ran several Drak Tharon runs and a couple VH runs, where one bugged and the portal keeper was stuck in the ground, but the portal stayed open and continued to spawn adds throughout the entire dungeon (8 portals left). But I managed to keep mana up despite divided effort between DPS trying to stay alive and the tank rounding them all up. I did it without drinking and without the cost reduction gear I painstakingly laid out in numbers for readers, by properly using Divine Plea, Divine Illumination, and Avenging Wrath at the right times.

It does show as 1044, and from following the theorycraft at EJ they agree that mana reducing items such as the Libram or Trinket apply before the multipliers.

Thank you for clarifying on that. I'll update the numbers tomorrow morning to reflect it properly.

Post by svirve

Just to be a little picky but i'd put the cookie cutter build as 51/0/18+2 since as previously discussed alot of people will take PoJ over divinity. But for min/maxing divinity > PoJ.

And even though i dont see anything wrong with your itemization order (it's more than viable) i'd still like to argue that int > haste > crit > SP > Mp5 is a more reasonable priority.
Reason being that paladins have enough mana for themselves and 3 other healers. Finding paladins that dont end fights with 50%+ mana is not as easy as one would think. But still people die because of lack of healing.
Since paladins end fights with very high mana pools getting the heals out quicker is actually the most important thing.
As you said haste does nothing if you're oom. But the reaper wont spare your tank because you have infinite mana.

I realised that got a little thick but to keep it simple.
#1 Int: It's pretty much the be all end all stat for paladins.
#2 Haste: Atleast untill soft capped this is awesomejuice for HPS.
#3 Crit: for effective mana and it shouldn't be weighted over HPS when we're still finishing fights with ~50% mana
#4 SP: Comes naturally with gear so no reason to stack it.
#5 Mp5: Even though there are better stats to be used for the item budget it shouldn't be forgotten.

Otherwise all in all it's a great thread.

You're an awful person though.
You could've atleast reserved one spot for further developing would love to see this grow :)

Post by Rouen

Just to be a little picky but i'd put the cookie cutter build as 51/0/18+2 since as previously discussed alot of people will take PoJ over divinity. But for min/maxing divinity > PoJ.

Yes, this is where it falls into personal preference. PoJ is undoubtably handy for the Heigan dance and fights with a lot of movement. For an up and coming healidin like myself, after much research, this is the spec I decided on. Since I won't be doing many movement heavy raids/heroics in the beginning as an 80, my focus is getting the crit to save mana and the extra healing power (Divinity).

Finding paladins that dont end fights with 50%+ mana is not as easy as one would think. But still people die because of lack of healing.
Since paladins end fights with very high mana pools getting the heals out quicker is actually the most important thing.
As you said haste does nothing if you're oom. But the reaper wont spare your tank because you have infinite mana.

Your right, there is a point where you've stacked so much of a stat that additional points won't bring as much value, say if I have 45% crit but only 300 haste, stacking additional crit won't be worth as much as gaining more haste to pump out the heals. I left out MP5 because it's going to be on some gear and your not really gonna be able to get away from it (it's on a lot of healing plate gear) even if it is a poorly itemized stat.

You're an awful person though.
You could've atleast reserved one spot for further developing would love to see this grow :)

What did you want me to expand on?

Post by svirve

Indeed it is only personal preference with the two last points in the build. But if you do intend to make this into more of a guide instead of a plan for your paladin i'd say leaving out oppinions is in some aspects very important.
Recommending glyphs and such based on your oppinion is ofcourse necessary.
People dont read guides to hear what someone thinks is right they read it because they want to know what's right.

I know this wasn't your initial intention but as i understood it you were leaning towards that after all the feedback.

Actually getting more crit is more desirable at 45% crit than at a lower crit %
The increase in your "effective mana pool" per point of crit gets higher the more crit you get.
This thread under Stats - Critical strike rating
going from 48% to 49% crit gives you twice as much mana as going from 0% to 1% crit.
Though i agree with your general point stats get less desirable at certain "caps" (i say this very loosely).
Like haste at 50% or 1639,5 rating (35% or 1147,65 with JotP) the global cooldown will be capped at 1 second. Though this only reduces the value of haste ever so slightly because HL's are still at 1.33... seconds cast time (with lights grace).

It's quite impossible to make a general itemization rule that is true to all paladins. And it would require about 20 or so to have atleast 1 correct for every paladin.

So far i like what i see to say the least :)

Edit:
Not really sure what i would've wanted in here more. Just wanted more :)
It was a good and enjoyable read it just ended too soon.

Post by 127934

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Post by svirve

Svive, the only time more crit is a bad thing is when you never have to cast plea (LoH for mana or pot) whist healing (read HL spam) your tank and still don't run oom. It's the same principle as gemming int everywhere in that higher regen = more HL usage = more HPS. Ending a fight with mana is nowhere near as relivant as having enough mana to spam though the harder parts without worry or need to plea. Although I agree that haste should by no means be neglected.

I'm guessing you didnt understand my post about crit.
More crit is NEVER a bad thing.

I hope you understand how crit really (not just crits = 60% mana returned) affects our effective mana pool otherwise this is just a waste of space.
Crit is the only thing for holy paladins that get better the more you have. Everything else diminishes.

Even if as you said you never have to use DP (i cant see how this would be anything but awesome juice cooked with a side of bacon), pots or LoH whilst healing. More crit is not a bad thing because it means you can heal even more. Your effective mana pool will never come to a point where you can constantly spam HL during a whole fight without going OOM. And only then will more crit be less desirable but not by much cause there will most probably always be harder content.

To be bold i'd go so far as to say that crit can replace int (if you have enough). And it will.

Post by 127934

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Post by svirve

Yea i was looking into that earlier today because i was thinking the same thing.
Could only get up to ~50% crit with talents and gear so wasn't really that exciting.

Didn't save the item list since it was a real anticlimax seeing that low number.

Post by svirve

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Post by slasher0161

Found it, this setup will give you highest amount of crit rating. 51.96% crit chance unbuffed.

Actually just realised it's only the gear set with the most crit rating on it. =/ Didn't take into account all the int I might be leaving out.

Well still i dont think this would be coming close to 70+ even fully buffed.

Just thought i would add that you didn't take into account an extra JCing gem from a belt buckle. :D
(i'm certain you could also pile on a bit with enchants too). this is with the extra gem for the belt buckle.

Post by svirve

Yea i missed alot of things on that list going to redo it later, most probably in rawr. So much easier with a GUI that has all enchants/buffs listed as well.

If it's less of the previous anticlimax (52% unbuffed >.<) i'll start a new thread about it.
Dont have to completely take over rouens thread.

Post by Rouen

Dont have to completely take over rouens thread.

Re-Hijacked FTW!

If you are looking to turn this into a guide then it's worth mentioning that SoW melee abuse is awesome. After running a few 10man Ulduar hard modes (Council and Crazy cat lady in particular) it makes quite a lot of difference.

Once I hit level 80, I'll start playing with Seal of Wisdom melee mana returns to get some hard numbers and try to find some correlation with weapon speed if one exists. That might not matter too much since one handed weapon speeds are typically on or under the 2.00 range. I intend on putting out the Holy Shock numbers on the OP for additional reference today so keep your eyes peeled.

On the whole PoJ vs Divinity + Tuskarrs, either way it doesn't matter. As stated run speed works like haste and scales strongly the more movement there is in a fight (Ulduar!)

I think I may end up taking the two points out of Divinity and place them in Pursuit of Justice because of string of bad experiences while trying to heal regular Halls of Lightning for the first time (and second, third, fourth). A number of things went wrong. First, my obvious inexperience as a healer, despite the fact I haven't had a single failed nexus/violet hold/drak tharon/UK dungeon run yet, I know HoL is a difficult instance to do regardless as I don't normally run it on my mage. Secondly, it was a pug. Third, I had DPS and a tank that I couldn't either keep LoS or range on without losing it on another. During Ionar, in the DPS's effort to keep from AoEing each other down, they hid behind pillars... so I had to move to heal them and lose it on the tank. PoJ probably would have helped me compensate for crappy group positioning with all the movement I did to keep them alive, but a healer shouldn't have to do this. I need more experience and maybe a good add-on to use. I was using X-Perl, but something was forcing the target to change and it happened very often. The problem went away once I removed it, but I had a more difficult time healing.

An unrelated, but humorous read
Yesterday evening, my guild (Tribute) sent out invites to several other guilds on Azjol-Nerub server to The Great Gnome Race. The server the race would take place on was identified in the last 10 minutes. Everyone created a LV 1 gnome, stripped them naked and put on pink bunny tabards. A lot of us had funny names to add to the mix, such as crotchheight. (Hint: That was the most PG-13 of them)

Start: Kharanos, Eastern Kingdoms
Destination: Origrimmar, Kalimdor

No ports, potions, hearth, nothing. Just your two little legs and whatever in game transportation at major cities to get you there. I took a different route, a much more difficult route, then the rest, powering to IF to take the tram to SW, then south through Duskwood and slogging it through Stranglethorn Vale. By the time I made it to the ship, everyone else (Who took the boat from SW harbor to Darkshore, then ran south through Ashenvale and through the Barrens) were already half way through the Barrens but ran into a bunch of trouble. I finally made it to Booty Bay and my boat dropped me off at Ratchet and sprinted north through the Barrens, through Durotar with no problem, dying just inside the gate. My prize? A crafted epic cloak to the toon of my choice (I chose Deathchill Cloak for my holy paladin) and 350g. I had 23 deaths. Second place had only 8 deaths and won a bonus 50g for having the fewest deaths along with the 200g second place prize.

I didn't know what the prizes were when we started, but my motivation was this: Imagine what the horde players were thinking when this gaggle of naked level 2 gnomes in pink bunny tabards running for their life into Orgrimmar, only to be slaughtered in great piles outside the gate.

Yeah, we got the attention I figured we would.

The capper of the race? After my winning death about 15 yards inside the Orgrimmar front gate, a lv 56 undead on his mount walked up to my body, stared at it for a long time (probably laughing his ass off), where he then hugged my body and got his Make Love, Not Warcraft achievement.

Thanks to Xelora and Co. of Azjol-Nerub for putting up the gold for the guild, tabards, and her contributors for the prizes.

Post by svirve

Good job at re-hijacking it ;p I was starting to worry i had scared you away ^^

Once I hit level 80, I'll start playing with Seal of Wisdom melee mana returns to get some hard numbers and try to find some correlation with weapon speed if one exists. That might not matter too much since one handed weapon speeds are typically on or under the 2.00 range.

Not entirely sure on what numbers you were looking for but here are some numbers of my own:
These are far from definitive tests as you can see on the WWS logs they're all around ~20 minutes.

Using a 3.3 speed weapon
Mana pool: 14554
Hits: 326
Procs: 300
Proc chance: 92.02%
PPM: 15.24
WWS Link

Using a 2.3 speed weapon:
Mana pool: 16574
Hits: 502
Procs: 309
Proc chance: 61.55%
PPM: 14.47
WWS Link

Using a 1.4 speed weapon:
Mana pool: 15839
Hits: 742
Procs: 294
Proc chance: 39.62%
PPM: 15.24
WWS Link - Messed up the comment it's actually a 1.4 speed weapon not 2.3.

My tests seem to suggest a PPM of 15(14.9833...) this would give the following gain in Mp5:

30 000 Mana pool:
100% uptime 300 Mp5
75% uptime 225 Mp5
50% uptime 150 Mp5
25% uptime 75 Mp5

25 000 Mana pool:
100% uptime 250 Mp5
75% uptime 187,5 Mp5
50% uptime 125 Mp5
25% uptime 62,5 Mp5

20 000 Mana pool:
100% uptime 200 Mp5
75% uptime 150 Mp5
50% uptime 100 Mp5
25% uptime 50 Mp5

As i said im not entirely sure if this is what you were looking for but might help in finding what you wanted :)

Post by 127934

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Post by Rouen

I have laid out the Holy Shock numbers on the original post for additional reference. I plan a later update on the comparison of the three heals (Holy Light, Flash of Light and Holy Shock) on the basis of the amount healed without spell power, with spell power, and with/without the mana discounts available to the spells as listed in the OP. My methods for determine these numbers will most likely differ from other folks, but the premise and end result will probably be the same. Stay tuned.

Remember, all significant updates will have a bolded triple asterick like this. ***

Holy Paladin - Methods for Mana Efficiency

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