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Holy - How much crit?
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Post by
freakeystyley34
So i've just joined a reasonable guild (naxx 25 on farm, something like 8 bosses down in uld 10 and just about to start uld 25) so my gear is improving. I'm at just over 2k spellpower unbuffed (no inner fire), 700 spi, 950 int, 280 haste and 18.5% holy crit unbuffed.
I know my spirit is lagging a bit but i have the
dragon figurine
from OS10 so shortly into a boss fight i have an extra 180 spirit and i don't feel my regen is an issue at the moment.
I gather the thing to do at the moment is stack crit and int as crits proc surge of light and holy concentration, and a bigger mana pool means more mana back from replenishment, but i don't know how much crit is too much, should i stop at 25% raid buffed then go for haste, or is there enough haste on ulduar gear that i shouldn't worry about gemming and enchanting for it.
Any ideas anyone has would be very helpful, thanks in advance.
Post by
PrimeSonic
Deleted for inaccuracy.
Post by
ignayshus
If it's any guide, without any buffs at all I'm sitting at:
1050 Sta
1020 Int
1002 Spi
535 OOFSR regen
21.14% Holy Crit
7.93% Haste
2236 Spellpower
With that I'm comfortable with the haste I have, though I'd be willing to trade it in for more crit. I tend to use the trinket slots to append the amount of regen or haste I have in order to tailor myself to those fights where it's useful (ex. spark of life + egg of mortal for haste or MDF + DM:Greatness for regen)
Raid buffed, flasked and with my Majestic Dragon Figurine and Illustration of the Dragonsoul stacked up it looks more like this.
1512 Sta
1244 Int
1454 Spi
966 OOFSR regen not counting Darkglow or Meta procs.
27.48% Holy Crit
16.08% Haste
3174 Spellpower
Post by
Paolo
Nine inches! Really?
Post by
ignayshus
Don't be dumb, he's looking for gearchecks for those raiding in Uld25.
I gave that both unbuffed and buffed, including how I look at crit and haste per his question.
I'm sorry if that made you feel impotent.
Post by
73830
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
PrimeSonic
Damn, this is why I should stay out of Holy related topics. Sorry.
Post by
OscarDivine
to the OP: You look like you're going for crit over haste, which for a holy priest is
not
how you should be directing your gear. Holy priests will benefit more from
HASTE before CRIT
. This is not to say that you shouldn't take any gear with crit on it. I would say that the 18-20% that you have right now is perfectly fine.
The reason that you don't really NEED to stack crit is that a lot of your spells will hit multiple targets, CoH, PoM, Prayer of Healing, and Holy Nova. With a crit of 20% you will have an "effective 100% chance" to crit at least once from casting any of those spells (especially with a glyphed CoH). You will have plenty of up time for Holy Concentration and will be virtually guaranteed a Surge of Light proc just by casting these spells once.
Now, as a matter of language, I have to clarify (I've had to do this in another thread... *sigh*) that "effective 100% chance" is still subject to RNG. 20% crit percentage means that one in every five spell hits
should
result in a critical effect. This isn't always the case of course... SO... I say "effective 100% chance".
edit: punctuation and spelling
Post by
ignayshus
I don't entirely agree with that statement of Haste before Crit.
Haste is only useful up until you can keep pace with high sustained damage situations (p2 mimiron is an excellent example). Otherwise as soon as you stop chain casting, you're in the same place as the guy with zero haste.
This is why I favor crit on gear, and use trinkets for haste.
In context if I have 15% haste and you have 20% haste you cast at a rate of 1.25 seconds per gcd and I at a rate of 1.30 seconds. So for every spell we chain back to back you get approximately 0.05 seconds ahead of me in healing done.
So if we chained CoH, (3stack) PoH, Flash Heal, (1stack) PoH, CoH (a typical response to high raid wide burst damage) you'd be done in:
1.25 + 1.92 + 1.25 + 2.27 + 0 = 6.69 seconds
and I'd be done in:
1.3 + 1.98 + 1.3 + 2.36 + 0 = 6.94 seconds
You got 0.25 seconds ahead of me until we could take a break and then we were both at square one.
Of course this doesn't count crit.
Assuming for ilevel that 1 crit = 1 haste (which I don't think is true), then you have to look at what the extra haste costs in term of lost crit.
5% haste = 5 * 32.79 (haste rating) = 163.95 / 45.91 (crit rating) = 3.57 % crit applied to each target of each aoe spell.
I don't think anyone could prove it either way, but with 3.5% extra chance to crit on the 22 targets, I feel comfortable guesstimating that the increased amount I'd be healing would make up the 0.25 seconds I got behind you.
Post by
OscarDivine
Well, most of us don't actually have more than 15% haste rating (or even 17% in REALLY high end content), which is clear because of a diminishing returns factor that you can expect from a stat like Haste. This leaves plenty of room for crit, but until you reach a certain amount of haste, I don't think you should prioritize crit over it.
Now, go look at WoW-Heroes.com and see all of the BEST Geared holy priests on any realm, I'm willing to bet you'll see at least 550 Haste (16-17% ish) and around 13-15% crit. To be safe, maybe we can just say 15/15 is a good round number for holy priests.
Again, if we're using our crits to proc our abilities like Holy Concentration and Surge of Light, the job is done with 15-20% crit at a virtually 100% chance to have your effects.
Now, if you're talking about getting larger numbers, that's a different story, but I still don't think that Crit should be itemized over Haste for your gear until you reach at least 10% or 330 Haste rating.
edit: changed numbers for realism.
Post by
Ethix
Unbuffed, I sit with around 17.5% haste, and nearly 20% holy crit. No, I don't stack haste gems or that madness. My level of gear is clearing up to keepers every week since release and clearing to yogg in 10 man (we've been failing at raiding because of the severe, severe server lag during 75% of our raid times).
Just for an example, rawr says that the ring Lost Jewel is better than the Ring of Channeled Magic. SO, I'd assume I'm sort of at the soft haste cap with my relative level of crit.
In Ulduar, I do value haste at a much higher value than crit for the following reasons. There are many phases on bosses that require burst healing. Examples would be tantrum on deconstructor (though nerfed to poop now), freya with the sunbeam keeper, hodir during frozen blows, kologarn after the raid wide 50% dmg since if you don't get people up they can get instant gibbed, and ignis flame burst thing (nerfed to poop so ehhh).
I'm a flash heal #$%^& who often helps with tank healing since we can't find any reliable tank healers. So, holy concentration is almost always on for me. I don't want to go disc because frankly, we don't have any reliable raid healers. Fun times.
Post by
OscarDivine
Just found this on Elitist Jerks:
For haste, there are some nice cutoffs to reach. If you can hit 20% haste, it lowers the cast-time of a GHeal (without any procs/talents) to 2.08 seconds. If you never use GHeal, consider that it does the same thing for Prayer of Healing, and then you can stack Serendipity on top of that. For a Disc priest, you gain 6% from Enlightenment, and an additional 5% from Wrath of Air, plus 3% from ret/moonkin aura, leaving you with only 5% to gain from gear to reach the hard GCD cap on PW:S (given Borrowed Time). For a holy priest, you don't have Enlightenment, so you should consider picking up slightly more haste. I personally don't count Serendipity in any way, since it's mostly used for hasting PoH, and every bit of haste helps there. TL;DR: Holy, run 12-14% haste. Disc, run ~6% haste, or slightly under. To be honest, it's genuinely hard to avoid passing the 6% haste mark in Ulduar gear; you have to actively aim for all crit pieces, and even then picking up a T8 piece or two will put you there.
Hope that helps put haste into perspective for holy priests vs disco priests.
Post by
OscarDivine
In Ulduar, I do value haste at a much higher value than crit for the following reasons. There are many phases on bosses that require burst healing. Examples would be tantrum on deconstructor (though nerfed to poop now), freya with the sunbeam keeper, hodir during frozen blows, kologarn after the raid wide 50% dmg since if you don't get people up they can get instant gibbed, and ignis flame burst thing (nerfed to poop so ehhh).
Yeah this is quite true. In fact, Ulduar was DESIGNED to have Burst Damage phases alternated with Rest phases. Think about it, and then think about every fight you have in that instance. If you try to barrel fully through without stopping, you'll OOM. And if your raid is constantly taking damage so that you HAVE to barrel through without stopping, your raid is doing something wrong.
edit - Ethix you can't do Raid Healing at the same time as MT healing. Well, I guess you can but you won't perform well in either role if you're doing both. Do what I do and dual spec into Holy Main Disco Secondary. When you need to MT heal, go disco.
Post by
ignayshus
You get 8% haste from 25man raid buffs alone, so all you really need to come up with is 7% haste and you're at the 15% and gemming can get you the rest of the way to 20% without much trouble.
I've noted that the "magic number" for me floats somewhere between 225-400 haste rating (depending on the fight) after which crit becomes more valuable. So I try to push my gear down to that 225 and when I really need the haste I sub out a crit neck and a crit ring for the haste equivalent and add the spark of life in place of my normal regen trinket.
Post by
OscarDivine
...you're at the 15% and gemming can get you the rest of the way to 20% without much trouble.
Wow 5% haste is 163.9 Haste RATING. It isn't realistic to gem for an additional 5% haste. Again, after the 15% haste mark, the rest is really gravy anyway. Diminishing returns will hit you pretty hard past 15% so even really going past THAT is really iffy. These numbers are all
unbuffed
.
Crit you can stack until you hit the sky after 15%ish haste but you have to be very careful choosing to go too high on your haste.
Again, to quote EJ:
Rules of Thumb for Holy
Stack haste up to 12-14%. Think hard about whether you need more than that, given raid buffs and talents.
Pick up as much intellect as you can. It's always valuable.
Spellpower is always good.
11 spirit = 4 Mp5, ignoring spellpower gains entirely. Given spellpower gains, a 2:1 ratio is acceptable.
Crit is always valuable, although less so once you break 30% raid-buffed (diminishing returns on ilvl points spent).
Rough goals for the start of Ulduar.25 are to have 2800 spellpower, 26-28% crit, and 12% haste, along with ~ 500 Mp5 I5SR fully raid-buffed.
Post by
ignayshus
The recommendation for holy is misprinted.
They are recommending 12-14% haste from gear/enchants/gems alone +8% from raid buffs for a total of 20-22% haste.
Personally I think that is too high, as I like to run with around 7% haste + 8% from raid buffs, but that's just me.
Post by
OscarDivine
The recommendation for holy is misprinted.
They are recommending 12-14% haste from gear/enchants/gems alone +8% from raid buffs for a total of 20-22% haste.
Personally I think that is too high, as I like to run with around 7% haste + 8% from raid buffs, but that's just me.
Keep in mind that this is assuming Ulduar level gear and Ulduar fights. Hitting 15% haste is NOT difficult with T8 gear.
Post by
soadrokr
i favor haste due tothe act that its always there, and crit is unreliable, and as oscar said, with our heals that hit mulitple targets, we get plenty of procs form our crit related talents
i aim to stay at about 15% crit, and im sitting at 17.34% right now
Post by
Ethix
By helping out with MT healing, I mean that I flash heal when I'm doing nothing else. Which amounts to about 25-30% of my total healing. Also gives me a lot of seredipidy stacks for pro prayers of healing.
Post by
karlusdavius
10% Haste
25% Holy Crit
Crit -
Holy Concentration
Haste -
Prayer of Healing
Once there, stack evenly.
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