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Hit vs. Expertise
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Post by
156946
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Enyce
first off man....dks arent casters...ya we cast spells, but there will never be the day that an Icy Touch does more damage then Obliterate. if you have a "spell heavy rotation" chances are u are a fail dk
Post by
Aleanos
Expertise is better for tanks, simply because it reduces the chance for your attacks to be Dodged
and
parried. Expertise also work not only as a tps increase, but an avoidance stat aswell (less parries = less "parry gib")
Frost, like you said, use alot of spells that are unaffected by expertise but due to the 2x value of expertise it's slightly more attractive than hit I'd say. Hit is great however, it's by no means bad :)
After you've reached the Dodge cap (21 expertise iirc) then Hit becomes more or less the better tps increasing stat.
Post by
DerrHans
I would say get atleast melee Hit capped + expertise minimal of 6.5%
But that counts for all tank's u still need it to get Death Runes if u spec it and for Obliterate.
OB > IT
Awareness sigil can be bought from the Valor badge vendor.
Post by
156946
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
334662
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
156946
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
334662
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
DerrHans
well 2 IT leaves u with 2 weak unholy runes doing nothing..
So basicly u get is 2OB > 2IT or equal to 2IT +2xPS (ps can crit to and more often if u have 2xt7)
maybe 3OB < 4IT+2xPS i dont know never tested it.
But it would be equal in a full rotation i guess.
But OB
procs
HB so 3xOB +HB > 4xIT+2xPS
Killing machine should be used more on FS than IT and this
spec
allows OB to crit more often (24% instead of 18% for IT talented) than IT if u use KM procs on FS's. Also im not calculating the need of more hit rating for IT, so the chance to miss will be about equal to OB to be Parried. Points in subversion can be use in Virulence
But if u already melee hit and dodge capped than u dont need to change it. If u use IT + FS i would say more HIT > EXP
*edit*
Holy hell i got a phone call while typing this..
Pressed Submit to late : )
Post by
Talamare
For a Frost tank hit far surpases expertise
I estimate that only about 10-15% of your damage can be even affected by expertise at all if you use blood boil and howling blast on cooldown
for myself personally I use SOB with every skill RS macros and using FS only when my RP is over 70, I tend to have a damage distribution of about 30% HB, 15% FS/RS
This still allows me to hold threat perfectly even against people doing 5k+ dps
Hit rating is far more important since it affects ALL our moves, while expertise only affects a tiny percentage of them, hell it might not even be "needed" to max expertise as a frost tank, but you should go ahead and do it anyways... eventually
Post by
Aleanos
For a Frost tank hit far surpases expertise
I estimate that only about 10-15% of your damage can be even affected by expertise at all if you use blood boil and howling blast on cooldown
If your white hits, Blood strikes and Obliterates are only doing 10-15% of your total damage, you're doing something wrong.
Remember that Expertise reduces the chance for your target to Dodge
and
parry your attacks, and it also works as a "defensive-offensive" stat, since it reduces the chance for your oppoents to parry ==> Less "parry-gibs" (whenever a parry occurs, the next attack is sped up by ~40%)
In short, expertise is the superior tps stat, but its value diminishes after the dodge cap.
Post by
Talamare
For a Frost tank hit far surpases expertise
I estimate that only about 10-15% of your damage can be even affected by expertise at all if you use blood boil and howling blast on cooldown
If your white hits, Blood strikes and Obliterates are only doing 10-15% of your total damage, you're doing something wrong.
Remember that Expertise reduces the chance for your target to Dodge
and
parry your attacks, and it also works as a "defensive-offensive" stat, since it reduces the chance for your oppoents to parry ==> Less "parry-gibs" (whenever a parry occurs, the next attack is sped up by ~40%)
In short, expertise is the superior tps stat, but its value diminishes after the dodge cap.
READ it
"if you use blood boil and howling blast on cooldown"
"every skill RS macros"
Which means 1 OB per rotation and an EXTREMELY reduced amount of white hits because they are turned into RS
Also wtf "parry gib" are you expecting from a 2h tank, our swing speed is already slow as hell, and the boss only has a ~15-16% chance of parrying it, that even that percent is reduced heavily since half your swings will turn into unparryable RS... also "parry gib" only marginally increases the bosses swing speed, 30% increase if i recall correctly
the real dangers of "parry gib" comes from the 0 expertise rogue next to you who stacked haste upto his eyeballs and is using double 1.3 daggers swinging them at 0.5 speed... just a comparison
in 10 seconds 'you' swung at the boss 4~ times in 10 seconds, 2 of those swings became RS, the other 2 hit the boss with 15% chance of being "parry gib"
and the 'rogue' swung at the boss 40x + number of instant attacks with the same 15% chance
Post by
Aleanos
READ it
"if you use blood boil and howling blast on cooldown"
"every skill RS macros"
I did read it, but why would you want to use BB on single targets?
And only 1 OB per rotation?
I'm sure it's possible to maintain aggro from 5k+ dps with your rotation, but that doesn't mean you're using your runes to their maximum potential. Also, I'm not saying that expertise is the best for you right now with your exact rotation. For all I know, you could be using some "spell heavy" rotation that I've never heard of which priorotizes hit rating.
But the fact remains: Overall for DK tanks, no matter if you're blood, frost or unholy,
expertise is the better than hit for tps until Dodge cap
.
The reason I mention the "parry==>swing haste" thing was to make readers aware that Expertise doesn't only serve as a tps increase stat, but also as a dmg-taken reduction stat (slightly however)
I got the "Parry-gib" name from Karazhan, where the final boss (Prince Malchezaar) would DW during phase two and gain the ability "Thrash" (gives him 2 extra attacks). Thrash + some unlucky parries from the tank would lead to heavy burst damage taken by the tank, occationally killing him.
I never said that "parry-gib" was something one should gear for, or even watch out for. I was merely trying to give everyone a heads up on the defensive aspects of Expertise.
Edited for beauty :)
Post by
334662
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Talamare
Except for the fact youre extremely exaggerating the effects of parry gib from the DK tank himself, parry gib really is a factor in tanking, that other tanks with faster swinging 1handed weapons and DW DK need to be aware of... however for a 2h DK tank with RS removing our white hit from the board, its only a tiny factor
and I fully agree that expertise > hit as a TPS increase for OTHER tanks, but for Frost DK its the opposite, only a smaller factor of our damage is affected
We are not warriors, we are DK, Frost DK for that matter, We ARE half spell caster
Post by
Aleanos
Great post as always Lynri (I'm a fan of frost 2-h dps :))
But there's a small error, I'm sure it's just a mistake, Expertise doesn't affect Frost strike and Rune strike since they cannot be dodged, parried and blocked, but they can still miss.
Post by
Talamare
BB is useless on Single Targets. If you're using it as frost you've just epicly failed as Blood Strike produces more threat without Blood of the North talent. With it it produces even more. As well as allows for more OBs to increase threat further. There should be no reason to use BB unless you're lacking in AoE threat or want to throw out a little more damage in between HB cds. (usually 1 in between, may be 2 if you're lucky) Youre right, BS is twice the threat, but even then Im not relying on BS for threat, since in the end its about 2% of your total damage single target
Only if you're HB glyphed/rotation based will you be using HB on cd on single targets. It's great but Obliterate will out threat it unless you've glyphed/rotation based it. Some people prefer the extra rp generation and slightly higher threat (depending on sigil and spec) that IT glyph/rotation provides, which would only use HB on cd during AoE. I do use a HB glyph rotation, with HB OB BS//HB OB OB or replacing any amount if rime procs, I can choose to use HB OB BB without much a TPS decline since the vast majority of threat comes from RS then FS then HB then OB then BS or BB
Hit rating does not affect RS or FS or any abilities with similar mechanics. So then almost 20-30% of single target threat is basically neither... I havent read on the skill it saying "cant miss" but I wont argue since I dont have proof one way or the other
Dps on AoE pulls isn't something people concern themselves with as AoE trash doesn't require skill. It's more buttonsmashing AoE then worrying about damage output or rotations.
Cute, trying to turn it like that, lemme reword it then - 5k+ dps single target
Not only does Obliterate provide more threat then IT but it's also more rp. Which means more FS/RS usage for increased threat and even more rp if Rime procs as you gain 5rp from using the free cast HB (anything freecasted due to a clearcasting talent/ability/spell will not provide any bonuses such as rage, rp or etc.) HB produces 5rp due to Chill of the Grave. Either way you look at it Expertise helps a lot for tanks, especially DK who gain most of their threat from damage output like do Feral Druids and etc.
Most Frost tanks are reporting trouble keeping a rotation filled to even be able to spam FS anymore since runes are recharging faster then you can dump especially true if you have SOB and Rapture Healer... Also HB has been providing RP when its free casted, and it also provides RP per target if it hits multiple targets if you have chill, and OB only makes more RP then IT if you have DPS T7.5, I know in my tanking gear I sure as hell dont, other wise IT makes essentially twice as much RP then OB
Post by
Aleanos
Except for the fact youre extremely exaggerating the effects of parry gib from the DK tank himself, parry gib really is a factor in tanking, that other tanks with faster swinging 1handed weapons and DW DK need to be aware of... however for a 2h DK tank with RS removing our white hit from the board, its only a tiny factor
I havent exaggerated it or anything, now it's your turn to read my post :p
"I never said that "parry-gib" was something one should gear for, or even watch out for. I was merely trying to give everyone a heads up on the defensive aspects of Expertise."
and I fully agree that expertise > hit as a TPS increase for OTHER tanks, but for Frost DK its the opposite, only a smaller factor of our damage is affected
We are not warriors, we are DK, Frost DK for that matter, We ARE half spell caster
Again I feel that you haven't read my post :P
If you're using some uncommon rotation which prioritizes hit over exp. that's fine by me. But by saying that "Hit > Exper" for Dk tanks in general is just plain wrong.
For instance, a normal Blood tank prioritizes Physical damage in the form of DS, RS, white damage and HS, in this case: Expertise is better point by point due to it's "double" value on 3/4 of the attacks listed above.
A "standard" frost tank's threat (not using the Glyph of HB or disease) would mainly come from Oblit, RS, FS, BS, white attacks and HB (to a small extent). Due to many "spells" being unaffected by expertise for a frost tank, the value of Expertise is diminished but undless your IT, FS, RS and HB are doing more than 50% of your total dps Expertise is the better stat.
For an Unholy tank, their main source of threat comes from SS, BS, UB, DC, RS and diseases. Since SS is their main nuke I dont think I have to explain it any further than: For UH tanks, Expertise is the better tps stat point by point.
Post by
Talamare
I havent exaggerated it or anything, now it's your turn to read my post :p
"I never said that "parry-gib" was something one should gear for, or even watch out for. I was merely trying to give everyone a heads up on the defensive aspects of Expertise."
Fair enough, but even so the defensive aspect of expertise these days are on the small side, since no one should ever dps from the front and a 2h frost tank has the least amount of worries when it comes to parry gibbing, its not as true for other DK build, and especially not true for DW DK, but frost DK has it easier when it comes to parry gib
A "standard" frost tank's threat (not suing the Glyph of HB or disease) would mainly come from Oblit, RS, FS, BS, white attacks and HB (to a small extent). Due to many "spells" being unaffected by expertise for a frost tank, the value of Expertise is diminished but undless your IT, FS, RS and HB are doing more than 50% of your total dps Expertise is the better stat.
If the only 'standard' rotation is the one that you have to force yourself to only use HB if rime procs, which I personally dont find it to be 'that' standard
If you're using some uncommon rotation which prioritizes hit over exp. that's fine by me. But by saying that "Hit > Exper" for Dk tanks in general is just plain wrong.
For an Unholy tank, their main source of threat comes from SS, BS, UB, DC, RS and diseases. Since SS is their main nuke I dont think I have to explain it any further than: For UH tanks, Expertise is the better tps stat point by point.
Aye, for Blood and Unholy Expertise is probably the much better stat, tho I did specify "OTHER tanks, but for Frost DK"
Post by
334662
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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