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Hit vs Expertise
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Post by
ChAiNsAwBuTcHeR
Hi,
today i was confronted with the theory of compensing the hitcap with expertise
If you are at the hitcap you never fail, but if you are not at the hitcap u fail sometimes... so if you now have a lot of expertise you miss sometimes but your attacks dont get avoided...
So could I say I dont need the Hitcap because I have enough Expertise?
How much expertise would be needed?
Speaking of Paladin and Rogue
Post by
Zalambar
Hi,
So could I say I dont need the Hitcap because I have enough Expertise?
No, hit and expertise counter different ways in which you can fail to deal damage (miss and dodge/parry). Even if you are hit capped your attacks can still be dodged and if you are only expertise capped you can still miss. Ideally you want to reach the cap for both stats.
Post by
Proky
but i think that hit is more important
Post by
4466
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Proky
for paladin hit rating is more valuable than expertise, because spells cant be parried,dodged,blocked. so he only need to hit the target, so hit is better than expertise in case of paladin
maybe that for war,druid or it doesnt matter
and i think that for example frost dk is hit rating more valuable, because howling blast is spell and cant be dodged or parried so hit is better, icy touch cant be parried or dodged too i think
my opinion i dont have any math behind this :)
Post by
109094
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
4466
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Proky
just to point out, for soloing or attacking mobs from the front Expertise is worth double Hit Rating until you reach 6.5% expertise, after which they are equal
Completely false. The first 6.5% expertise against a lv83 mob
will only remove dodge change
. It does not counter the mob's chance to be parry. Before the varying caps noted above, expertise and hit are equal in value.
To the posters trying to justify hit as spell hit, you might as well bring in pure casters to the conversation. Of course hit is more valuable when you're talking about spells. I was making a comparison of the two strictly based on a melee perspective (particularly since the OP explicitly mentioned Rogues).
FYI, no self-respecting DK or Paladin will ever strive to reach the spell hit cap as it offers extremely small benefits compared to other stats at that point.i know that dk and paladin only want to soft hit cap for spells, but i want to say, that for these two, i think hit is more valuable (until soft capped) than expertise
Post by
109094
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
4466
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
109094
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
4466
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
109094
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
T0rin
Sorry,quys for interrupting you,just little noob question here.
Exist definite values of hit and expertise ratings,after which there is no point to get more.Do i understand you right?
Post by
109094
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
T0rin
Thanks a lot.
Post by
Squishalot
I'll give you 7.
http://www.wowhead.com/?forums&topic=76950
http://www.wowhead.com/?forums&topic=85972
http://www.wowhead.com/?forums&topic=98887
http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t37032-faq_working_theories_raiding_level_80_a/
http://www.wowwiki.com/Expertise
http://www.wowwiki.com/Expertise_rating
http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=9941937465&postId=99857426489&sid=1#1
I got bored looking after those, they all say the same thing. how many more would you like? I could give you some tanking simulation programs if you like, unsurprisingly they say the same thing.
How about you post
one
that supports your claim?
To quote from the Wowwiki link:
For level 83 (raid bosses) the soft cap(for dps) is 6.5% dodge or 26 expertise (214 expertise rating), and the hard cap(for tanks) is 14% parry or 56 expertise (460 expertise rating)
That suggests to me that tanks need to negate both dodge *and* parry, and Expertise does so separately, not simultaneously. Hence you need twice as much Expertise, because melee DPS will always attack from behind, where there isn't any Parry.
Was that quote supposed to help your argument?
just to point out, for soloing or attacking mobs from the front Expertise is worth double Hit Rating until you reach 6.5% expertise, after which they are equal
Going back to your original point, once you reach 6.5% expertise, how will it equal Hit Rating benefit? If 1% Hit Rating will increase the chance of hitting by 1%, what will going from 6.5% Expertise to 7.5% do, and why?
Post by
109094
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Drenlox
as mellee dps you should be attacking from behind, removing the parry table, helps your dps and less dmg goes to the tank, hit and parry cap isnt that hard to reach and its alot of extra dmg. if removing an 8% chance to miss is a super important stat, why wouldn't 6.5% deserve attention? btw exprtise still valuable to a pala considering seals dont get through on a weapon swing dodge,and a decent chunk of dps still belongs to white dmg regardless.it shoudnt be ignored.look at recount and take the number of mellee dodges and remove that from your seal count hmm? and im sure frost would pick up the 3% hit on spells for HB, 1st tier in UH and only 3% for 3pts isnt much to give up,
Post by
Squishalot
<...>
Yeah, I've done a bit more research and realised that. The Wowwiki article isn't terribly well written, unfortunately, since it opens with "dodge or parry". It took me quite a while to dig out the base parry chance. I was working on the presumption that the parry chance was equal to the dodge chance, as with player mechanics.
On a side note, it's worth noting though that after 6.5% Expertise, you'll get slightly more value out of Expertise than you will from Hit, simply because your starting coefficient is lower. But only until you have an equal chance to miss and parry.
Thanks for the clarification.
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