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Hawk Eye
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Post by
343332
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Post by
cms2k
You'll have to provide actual numbers regarding this rather than a mere assertion that Hawk Eye = more dps.
Post by
343332
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Post by
cms2k
I have yet to see anywhere that Hawk Eye (which is merely increased range) has any effect whatsoever on dps in any direct manner. Sniper Training on the other hand can directly effect dps since the buff itself has a 15 second duration that is refreshed if standing still the full 6 seconds. So with ST it is more moving and knowing when to stop and stand still than anything.
The question becomes, does Hawk Eye allow the hunter to potentially stay in one place longer? The simple answer to this is no. The more complex answer is somewhat. The boss and/or mobs are what governs whether or not the hunter will need to move due largely to ground debuffs, aoe attacks, etc. The longer the hunter's range, the more playing room he has to avoid some of these attacks or just get completely out of the mobs range and still be able to dps.
No matter what, there is NO direct relationship to extra range via Hawk Eye and additional DPS. The case could be made that indirectly, it helps on a situational basis.
Post by
343332
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Post by
346934
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Post by
cms2k
Well, unless you have actually run the last half of Ulduar yourself and know from experience, how can you possibly assume that Hawk Eye doesn't out-dps less than 1% total damage even in optimal conditions? It doesn't have to do with JUST staying in one place longer, it has to do with range issues.
Check out:
http://elitistjerks.com/f74/t38137-survival_hunter_wotlk/
And go to the last few pages. A lot of the people who have already done these fights apparently feel it is necessary. I was just getting the word out here because it's something people should consider. From what I've read it seems it has helped them immensely.
The answer is incredibly simple. Hawk Eye does not increase DPS in any direct manner. Have you read the tooltip for
Hawk Eye
? Perhaps you could show us where is explicitly states Hawk Eye increases DPS. Perhaps you would specifically describe these "range issues".
Perhaps you are locked into the fickle feeling following folly of the posters on EJ. I assure your, their "feelings" do not get in the way of hard data. Show us where specifically where the direct link between Hawk Eye and DPS is located and the results it has produced.
<snip>
Thoughts? Anyone else with deep Ulduar experience agree with this?
Clearly you claim to want opinions. However when people post responses (myself included) you seem to want to do nothing be somehow justify your assertion without the benefit of any facts whatsoever. My response may initially sound somewhat harsh though a review the your assertion will no doubt give way to my consistent request to produce the hard data.
Let me simplify this further: Produce the evidence that Hawk Eye increases DPS.
Post by
347407
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Post by
cms2k
What you are describing is damage going down due to the boss or mob going out of range. Hawk Eye only gives the hunter more range and presumably lessens the likelyhood of the mob going out of range. All this is dependent upon the positioning of the hunter in relation to the mob. In no way does Hawk Eye increase (or decease for that matter) damage in any way.
Post by
dpoyesac
The answer is incredibly simple. Hawk Eye does not increase DPS in any direct manner. Have you read the tooltip for
Hawk Eye
? Perhaps you could show us where is explicitly states Hawk Eye increases DPS. Perhaps you would specifically describe these "range issues".
Perhaps you are locked into the fickle feeling following folly of the posters on EJ. I assure your, their "feelings" do not get in the way of hard data. Show us where specifically where the direct link between Hawk Eye and DPS is located and the results it has produced.
...
Let me simplify this further: Produce the evidence that Hawk Eye increases DPS.
Giving you the benefit of the doubt that you meant 'overall damage done' and not just 'DPS' -- as pointed out
above
, focusing on basic DPS would be just wrong -- can I ask what direct evidence are you asking for, cms2k?
After all, you can't be asking for spreadsheet theorycrafting, since (as you've pointed out) Hawk Eye doesn't directly affect DPS or paperdoll numbers. But then again, Mcbomb never claimed that it did. His basic claim was that Hawk Eye allowed more time doing damage and less time running around, and the more time doing damage was greater than the loss of the 30% increase to Black Arrow's periodic damage from
Trap Mastery
. The spreadsheets I've seen don't usually include a line called 'Time spent running around trying to stay out of the stuff on the ground!' and I can't imagine how such a line would be calculated or modeled even if it existed.
Maybe you are asking for combat log parses that show -- on average, and for certain fights -- builds with Hawk Eye do measurably more damage than those without. Now, that is a reasonable request (even if you failed to state so clearly or reasonably). The problem is that few guilds have beaten the fights under discussion, and so the set of statistically relevant combat log parses is currently too small to be... well, statistically relevant.
So it seems to me that you are jumping down Mcbomb's throat for not providing evidence that you have no right to be asking for -- unless there is a magical land where evidence grows on trees like apples and oranges and can be plucked and provided on a whim.
Post by
cms2k
<snip>
Giving you the benefit of the doubt that you meant 'overall damage done' and not just 'DPS' -- as pointed out
above
, focusing on basic DPS would be just wrong -- can I ask what direct evidence are you asking for, cms2k?
Combat log with the "play xxx did yyy damage due to Hawk Eye." That of course we all know doesn't exist since Hawk Eye merely increases the range in which a hunter is effective.
After all, you can't be asking for spreadsheet theorycrafting, since (as you've pointed out) Hawk Eye doesn't directly affect DPS or paperdoll numbers. But then again, Mcbomb never claimed that it did.
Actually, read the original post. "... Apparently, the amount of dps gained by having is significant ... " It was in a later post that he changed his presumption to damage rather than dps.
His basic claim was that Hawk Eye allowed more time doing damage and less time running around, and the more time doing damage was greater than the loss of the 30% increase to Black Arrow's periodic damage from
Trap Mastery
. The spreadsheets I've seen don't usually include a line called 'Time spent running around trying to stay out of the stuff on the ground!' and I can't imagine how such a line would be calculated or modeled even if it existed.
It seems we both agree that no data will be forthcoming (other than speculation) that Hawk Eye had any effect on damage or dps.
Maybe you are asking for combat log parses that show -- on average, and for certain fights -- builds with Hawk Eye do measurably more damage than those without.
You'll have to show me evidence of this as well. Specifically where build with Hawk Eye "measurably" do more damage than those without.
Now, that is a reasonable request (even if you failed to state so clearly or reasonably). The problem is that few guilds have beaten the fights under discussion, and so the set of statistically relevant combat log parses is currently too small to be... well, statistically relevant.
... "You'll have to provide actual numbers regarding this rather than a mere assertion that Hawk Eye = more dps."
.. "Let me simplify this further: Produce the evidence that Hawk Eye increases DPS."
I am unclear exactly how this request can be stated more clearly.
So it seems to me that you are jumping down Mcbomb's throat for not providing evidence that you have no right to be asking for -- unless there is a magical land where evidence grows on trees like apples and oranges and can be plucked and provided on a whim.
If you take the time to ready my responses, I am not jumping down anyone's throat. My approach initially may come across as harsh though the intent is certainly not so. I am however attacking the assertion that Hawk Eye increases DPS or damage. You have just made my point regarding the evidence I seek. Namely, it does not exist.
Post by
347407
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
cms2k
It does increase damage indirectly if it avoids having to reposition when boss moves out of range. SV DPS is much higher when we're standing- every time we move, we run the risk of losing our sniper training buff, as well as lose the ability to cast steady shots. If hawk eye can avoid movement, then it's a DPS increase for some encounters in my book.
Post hoc ergo proctor hoc
At least you admit that standing still is what actually causes the dps or damage to go up. It is not the Hawk Eye that increases the damage, it merely increases the range in which damage may be done. I believe you'll find my comment above where I point out that Hawk Eye does not directly effect dps or damage in any direct manner.
It is true that since 3.1 was released, the survival speced Sniper Training hunter must stand still for 6 seconds to get the +dmg bonus. Whereas prior to the patch, the survival speced Sniper Training hunter had to be a farther distance from the target to the get the +dmg bonus. Perhaps therein is where the confusion lies.
BTW, just to be exceedingly clear. It is not the Hawk Eye talent that is avoiding movement. It is the hunter avoiding movement.
Post by
mazhop
or in layman terms; Show where and how the extra 6 yards produces a dps increase. I can look at that statement two ways. Over best DPS possible in theory or over actual dps in game.
In theory I would agree, the talent offers no dps increase, all it does is increase range.
However in actual game play, If it can be shown that running & shooting (or standing still) with those extra yards produces a increase (in any amount) vs. not being able to shoot and run (or standing still) (due to being out of range) would it be agreed that points in HE would be worth it?
So, If I'm out of range with no HE points talented, I have 0 dps time on boss. If I'm using HE to gain addtional 6 yards and I'm able to dps on boss, isn't that an increase over 0? You just want to see hard data to prove it that it's an 'X' amount. Personally, I'm not sure if it's possible too.
Post by
cms2k
... In theory I would agree, the talent offers no dps increase, all it does is increase range.
Exactly my point. If memory serves, 3/3 in Hawk Eye equates to approximately 19 square yards of additional "reach". It is just that, extra range or in some cases wiggle room.
However, If it can be shown that running & shooting with those extra yards produces a increase (in any amount) vs. not being able to shoot and run (due to being out of range)
would it be agreed that points in HE would be worth it?
This is entirely up to the preference of the hunter.
So, If I'm out of range with no HE points talented, I have 0 dps time on boss. If I'm using HE to gain addtional 6 yards and I'm able to dps on boss, isn't that an increase over 0? You just want to see hard data to prove it that it's an 'X' amount. Personally, I'm not sure if it's possible too.
Being out of range on a given mob is a result of a fail hunter (in the general sense) and not the result of Hawk Eye. Sometime the tank pulls the mob out of range, sometime they charge someone else and thereby go out of range, sometimes the mob drops an AoE then must be avoided, sometimes the hunter just backs up too far, etc.
To answer your second question, no the Hawk Eye additional 6 yards has nothing to do with an increase in dps over a mob. The only real factor is whether or not the hunter is in range to shoot the mob.
I would like to see hard data on on this, however that would mean blizzard changing the combat log to show distance of a given successful attack or on the flip side a "unable to attack due to out of range" message or something. The likelyhood of this ever being implemented is vastly remote.
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141898
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250593
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141898
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355869
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355869
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