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Glyph of Devastate/Cleave/Sunder Amor
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Post by
Cloud8690
I know threat wise for single target tanking, Devastate would be better. However, for AoE tanking which would it be?
Couple questions about them as well. Glyph of devastate applies a second sunder to your target, which means 3 swings will cap your target instead of 5 swings. However Glyph of Sunder Armor applies a stack on a nearby target. Does having this glyph mean devastate will also apply a sunder armor to a nearby target or is it only sunder armor?
At the moment I'm using glyph of cleave to increase the amount of targets my cleave hits from 2 to 3. But since cleave doesn't have a threat modifier and only hits for a small amount, but hits more targets than glyph of sunder armor would, is it better than tabbing/spamming devastate for AoE tanking?
Thanks for any and all help.
Post by
138583
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Cloud8690
My major glyphs are Glyph of Cleave, Glyph of Blocking, and Glyph of Heroic Strike.
I was just curious because I'm in a new guild as a recruit and it came to my attention that my poll wasn't doing that well because of my lack of knowledge on sunder. But I had read several times that glyph of cleave was better for AoE tanking.
Post by
DaCyclops
To clear up what Zakkhar said, Glyph of Sunder Armor will apply the Sunder Armor effect from both Sunder Armor and Devistate to a second target. But only the buff, not the damage of Devistate.
I used to use Blocking, Cleave and Sunder Armor as my glyph set for group tanking, along with a Deep Wounds set. However, the extra stack of sunder from the glyph didnt seem to be adding anything significant to my tanking abilities when im spamming Thunderclap, Cleave and Shockwave with reckless abandon. And no-body should be hitting what your not hitting, so a stack of sunder on them shouldnt matter. So I switched it to a Glyph of Shield Wall and have seen no real changes with my style or threat generation.
While it is a nice utility glyph, its practical applications are fairly thin...
Post by
138583
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Cloud8690
My major glyphs are Glyph of Cleave, Glyph of Blocking, and Glyph of Heroic Strike.
Glyph of Heroic Strike? Very mediocre choice if you ask me. You HS when you are in infinite Rage situation, which means you get from 0 to 100 rage and back very frequently (rage bar is jumping back and forth like crazy) 10 Rage gain on HS crit is really bad gain for major slot glyph. Half of the time the rage gets wasted anyway. Its Fury glyph and its not really great for them either. There are much better choices for prot glyphs.
Ah, thanks for the info. I've been thinking about picking up the glyph of shield wall, for more "oh crap" moments. I agree with you that when I'm spamming HS in raids I have near unlimited rage, but there are times in raids when I'm getting a bit rage starved (ie. lucky string of dodges/parries) and that extra raged does help. But the times that happens is not frequent enough to warrant the glyph.
Post by
18907
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Post by
Porcell
People keep saying Devastate is just a "filler" ability for when you have a "spare GCD." That is one of the reasons why Glyph of Devastate is good, it gets the sunder stacks up on the boss a lot faster.
Not to mention the bonus threat you get to your devastate with Glyph of Devastate.
It's also kind of funny how people say they Glyph/Spec for the big fights (aka Bosses) and then advocate the use of Glyph of Cleave.
Post by
138583
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Porcell
If i am not mistaken the bonus threat you get only at first 3 glyphed devs. When you get full sunder there is no bonus threat. Also boss fight duration ensures that sooner or later the sunder will get stacked. If you prefer to get major glyph to do it 3 s sooner its your choice. With 2 warr tanks its use is zero.
Glyph of Devastate makes Devastate do Damage + 10% AP (as opposed to Damage + 5% AP) threat every time you press Devastate, whether it is the first, third, or tenth time you do it.
As far as sooner or later, I'm sure all of your melee DPS would prefer sooner. Besides, how does a typical boss fight rotation go for you? It's always a balance of your threat and your debuffs. Do you want to stack your sunders first, or do you want to get your shield slams and revenges in for threat, or do you want to get your TC and Demo up to reduce the damage you take.
Looking at some of my WMO parses, Devastate takes up about 35% of my GCDs, and with Glyph of Devastate I'm getting an extra ~415 threat on each devastate.
Between the faster uptime of Sunder and the increased threat, it is my contention that Glyph of Devastate is a solid choice for a major glyph slot.
Post by
303745
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Post by
Lorkin
The mandatory glyphs imo are Glyph of Blocking and Cleave. The last one is up to you. Blocking is sorta obvious, I won't talk about that.
I always tell the warriors in my guild to use Cleave. Ever since I got it I have been a huge fan. It allows such nice AoE threat that any other glyph pales in comparison. Since the majority of adds in Heroics, even raid trash are composed of 3 elites, Cleave just makes sense. The highlight of using this glyph was when I was off tanking the adds on KT in Naxx. The tank died somehow and I had to pick him up. Was able to tank KT along with both adds with the Glyph no problem. 3 targets, which is perfect with the Glyph of Cleaving.
Post by
marklartank
the only common glyph to every tank is blocking; everything else is situational.
cleave i don't use, but for lots of heroics i guess it's ok. trash just dies so fast in raids that TC/SW is plently. in fact, it was plenty for tanking KT + adds also.
my normal threat glyphs are revenge and devastate. stacking quicker sunder on raid bosses is quite useful, and i have no idea why anyone would think the glyph of devastate is crappy; more HS = more threat.
Post by
138583
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
marklartank
for aoe threat, then sure - use cleaving/sunder. but i question the point of glyphing for aoe threat in the first place. i can't think of a single situation in the game where glyphing for aoe threat would be worthwhile. the only exception might be if you only ran heroics and just had no interest in ever tanking raids.
glyph of revenge effectively gives you 9 rage / 5 seconds; AM gives you 1 rage / 3 seconds. that's quite a difference (5.4x more to be exact).
it's giving me that 9 rage every 3rd-4th attack to use on my top threat producing ability; i don't see the downside.
the bottom line is the glyph of revenge will increase your tps on a boss. there are only 5 glyphs i can think of that will do that:
blocking (mandatory)
revenge (#2 threat glyph)
devastate (#3 threat glyph + faster sunder stack)
heroic strike (i would swap for devastate only if i were having rage issues)
shockwave (only included for completeness - i would not use this for tps)
Post by
138583
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Porcell
very hard before a few nerfs. A lot of boss encounters in Ulduar include aoe thrash. Need some control in there.
You mean Razorscale and Thorim? That's two...
I can see a downside. You need to use it on certain skill. If you dont use the skill the rage is wasted. The problem with this skill is that it actually cost rage of white swing and you use it when you have excess rage anyway.
You have to use it on a certain skill, but it's a skill that you (should be) using on 70+% of your melee swings. HS isn't a "rage dump" anymore, it's a necessary threat increasing ability that really MUST be used. The more often you are able to use heroic strike, the better.
devastate (#3 threat glyph + faster sunder stack)
Threat gain is very mediocre. Faster sunder stack is actually only advantage of it.
Mediocre? It adds an additional 5% of your attack power as threat. Assuming around 4000 AP in a raid, that's an extra 200 bonus threat. Heroic Strike is a bonus 259 threat. Glyph of Devastate is like adding a heroic strike effect to Devastate without losing the white hit...
heroic strike (i would swap for devastate only if i were having rage issues)
Rage glyph. Even worse than Revenge.
Worse than Revenge? I actually switched out my Glyph of Revenge and replaced it with Glyph of Heroic Strike.
I looked at some boss fights and compared the number of times I used revenge and the number of times I used Heroic Strike and crit. For the fights I looked at, it ended up being an advantage to the Heroic Strike glyph.
Example: Ignus, about as tank and spank as you can get really. I had only 17 revenges in that fight, much less than the expected ~35. It's quite common to not really get off a revenge every 5 seconds, due to Shield Slam being ready or Revenge just not being lit up, or whatever. Anyway, 17 revenges would have been 153 saved raged with Glyph of Revenge. Of my 131 white hits, I turned 94 of them into Heroic Strikes. Of those 27 were crits, so I gained 270 rage from Glyph of Heroic Strike.
Example 2: Auriaya. 20 Revenges for 180 rage. 119 of 158 melee swings were heroic strikes, and of those 38 were crits for 380 rage gained.
Example 3: Patchwerk. 23 revenges for 207. 124 of 130 melee swings were heroic strikes, 32 crits for 320 rage.
shockwave (only included for completeness - i would not use this for tps)
Hmm 15% reduction on cd of your bottom tier talent? Yes, please.
Shockwave just isn't that useful on boss fights. Taking the CD from 20 down to 17 seconds just doesn't seem like a good deal to me, specially when I rarely use it on boss fights. It's a filler ability that does a bit more damage than devastate but doesn't proc Sword and Board....
Think of it this way. Really long boss fight of 6 minutes. Assuming you use Shockwave on every cooldown, that's 18 shockwaves. With the glyph you'd be able to do 21 shockwaves. My Shockwaves hit for about 3k (Threat is damage only, so 3k threat) and those 3 extra shockwaves would be replacing Devastates that hit for an average of around 1300 (Threat is damage +5% AP unglyphed, so around 1500 threat).
So over a 6 minute, really really long boss fight, assuming you are actually able to get off shockwave the instant it is off cooldown, you will gain 4500 total threat (25 TPS after modifiers) and about 5100 total damage (14 DPS). And if you for some reason miss hitting Shockwave the instant it is off cooldown, the glyph has been totally wasted.
Glyph of Shockwave = Terrible for PvE Raiding
Post by
marklartank
A lot of boss encounters in Ulduar include aoe thrash. Need some control in there.
i tank the thorim arena every week with no aoe threat glyphs. the glyphs would not change anything.
The problem with this skill is that it actually cost rage of white swing and you use it when you have excess rage anyway.
Increases threat? How exactly? You doing exact same amount of heroic strikes you did before. Dont tell me you are rage starving on boss fights. I can actually turn HS on auto.
Still if you rage starve using HS is shooting youself in the foot. It sure costs 9s less, but it also takes white swing rage.
i'm not sure you are appreciating the value of HS. loss of rage from your white swing is very little for a tank - most of our rage comes from incoming damage. and no, i cannot put HS on auto; i hit avoidance streaks all the time. saving the rage of HS means my rage bar is full more of the fight so i can use more HS.
and btw, i don't use the glyph on progression encounters, unless we're trying for hodir hard mode or something. but more HS = more threat, and this is a good glyph for threat.
Post by
138583
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Porcell
Hmm, have you count how many of those HS crits were happenining when you had already full rage bar? Or full Rage bar in less than GCD time from HSing?
Revenge is better in terms of this because it rises your theorethical rage pool to 109. The rage from the glyph will never get wasted.
Can't really tell if HS Crits were happeneing when I had a full rage bar, but it doesn't really matter. I cast heroic strike, I burn 9 rage, it crits, I gain 10 rage. If I was at 100 rage I just wasted 1 rage. Whoopie.
Glyph of Shockwave = Terrible for PvE Raiding
For MT Ulduar tanking probably yes. Do you ever tank anything else than bosses in Ulduar? I know i know. You dont need to glyph for it. You actually got better pc than i do, better ui better whatever and you arent experiencing huge fps spike lags on massive encounters. :(
I do tank other things, of course. But I can't really see where I have ever said, "Damn, I wish I had Shockwave up right now instead of 3 seconds from now."
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