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Gemming for A Feral Druid
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Post by
Eleazer
Okay guys, I am completely lost. I can't seem to read anywhere that tells me which way to go for both pvp and pve. I speak to several reputable people and half say agility the other half say ArP.
1. In pve Do I gem ArP or Agility? Is there a certain amount of ArP needed where I then gem agility?
2. In pvp with the recent nerf am I correct in understanding that Agility is back in?
Post by
484925
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
415932
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Toldu
0/3
Survival of the Fittest
, gem defense, and you have 3 extra talent points!
Yes, I'm kidding.
Post by
hashmel
0/3
Survival of the Fittest
, gem defense, and you have 3 extra talent points!
Yes, I'm kidding.
but...but...it takes less resilience to reach crit immune than defense rating
Post by
Eleazer
Did you read the stickes?
This is from the stickies, and the reason for the question. Next time when attempting to be a sarcastic tool, be sure you aren't talking to someone who knows what they are doing.
"Ideally for Pure Cat DPS gearing you should aim to get as much Armor Penetration, Agility and Strength as possible and in that order of preference. All while maintaining both the Hit Cap(8%) and the Expertise Soft Cap(6.5%)"
Now you explain to me mister Trolls exactly how that tell you what to gem.
Thank you mister Aileo, I knew there was some odd process behind it. It would help if there was an up to date pve cat thread.
Post by
Novak
"Ideally for Pure Cat DPS gearing you should aim to get as much Armor Penetration, Agility and Strength as possible and in that order of preference. All while maintaining both the Hit Cap(8%) and the Expertise Soft Cap(6.5%)"
"... Armor Penetration, Agility and Strength ... in that order of preference"
in that order of preference
Armor Penetration, Agility and Strength
Sounds kinda straightforward to me.
Post by
LookOut
"Ideally for Pure Cat DPS gearing you should aim to get as much Armor Penetration, Agility and Strength as possible and in that order of preference. All while maintaining both the Hit Cap(8%) and the Expertise Soft Cap(6.5%)"
"... Armor Penetration, Agility and Strength ... in that order of preference"
in that order of preference
Armor Penetration, Agility and Strength
Sounds kinda straightforward to me.
It's more complicated than that. Gemming for arpen only becomes better than agi when you have a certain amount of arpen ungemmed... No idea about the amount though, and cba to look it up either atm :p
Post by
Heckler
Usually, if you have enough ArPen to gem for it, it's because you specifically set out to do so. In the grand scheme of things, choosing Agility is so often the right choice, you may as well just gem for Agility. There's multiple tools out there to help out with the choice (I like Toskk's), but I would say a good thumb-rule is Gem ArP if you can get over 1000 ArP, if you have a Runestone or Grim Toll, gem to the soft caps Ailuro listed.
The important thing to remember is that if you don't get near the actual hard cap (1401) then you likely won't even see a difference between Agi and ArP, and if you're significantly below the cap then Agi will win every time.
Post by
Yunaleia
In terms of todays gemming, go with the above presets but remember to plan ahead since you can quite easily stat missing more important stats if you focus too much on the gear you have now instead of the gear you will at some point collect in the future.
~Yunabear
Post by
368348
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Heckler
I think I got that info from the guy above me who now says it's 1000.
It's been awhile since I actually looked into it at all, so here's an attempt at clarification.
It's not a "set in stone" number, it's dependent on your other stats. By Toskks, in my gear, the actual breakpoint is ~676. This is the point where eating Hearty Rhino results in more DPS than eating Blackened Dragonfin, in a stacked raid envioronment. (
This is if I magically could add ArP on top of what I already have. If I have to trade out Agility to do it, the numbers get a little foggy
).
If I look at a more "entry-level" gear set (although, it's tough to get more entry level than me) that number jumps up to ~974.
So let's check the dps differences, and the effect of trading Agi for ArP...
My current set (317 ArP): 7449 DPS
Trade ArP for Agi up to 676 ArP (Gain 359 ArP, Lose 359 Agi): 7424 DPS
Ahh, interesting! Now I'm at a point where ArP should be stronger (the magical breakpoint I tried to define above), but it's
not
anymore, because I lost so much Agi / AP / Crit%, AND my DPS
DROPPED
in order to accomplish this!
What if I got EVEN MORE ArP at the expense of Agility?
700 ArP in, 700 Agi out - (1017 ArP) - 7444 DPS (Still
less
than where I started, with 1017 ArP!)
850 Arp in, 850 Agi out - (1167 ArP) - 7469 DPS (Finally, an increase)
1000 ArP in, 1000 Agi out (1317 ArP) - 7506 DPS
1084 ArP in, 1084 Agi out (1401 ArP) - 7532 DPS (And this is at the hard cap, passively -- ie. functionally impossible)
This isn't a great a way to analyze the idea, of course you're not literally trading 1 Agi for every ArP (except when considering gems). But the crux of the entire debate is that assuming you're not changing the iLvl of your gear, every 1 ArP you pick up means you're losing 1 of something else.
Losing stats, ANY stats, generally
increases
the "magical breakpoint" -- This means that defining a "magical breakpoint" is a lot more complex than simply running your ArP value up in Toskk's until it says ArP wins. The number you get via this method will be significantly below the "actual" breakpoint.
The next important realization is that even hard-capped, the increase in DPS is not exactly breathtaking if you had to trade out all your Agi just to get there. Agi is our strongest stat, so it's probably more realistic to consider that you're actually trading Crit Rating or Haste, but the overall effect will be similar.
This is why I say, if you actually
should
be gemming for ArP, it's probably because you've specifically selected every single piece of gear to eventually do so. This whole idea that you should just continue to pick up gear willy-nilly, and once you pass X ArP, you should just change all of your gems is flawed at its core. It's an oversimplification.
My advice: Use
Toskk's calculator
and when it says "Gem for ArP and eat Hearty Rhino", do it. If you REALLY want to gem for ArP and you don't have a Runestone or Grim Toll, start surfing the database and build yourself a set of gear specifically tuned toward that purpose (ie. lots of ArP in trade for less valuable stats).
If you're not willing to do either of these options, just gem for Agi -- it's probably the right choice anyways.
Post by
Eleazer
Haha, thanks, heckler, the more I try to understand Feral Kittey dps the more confused I become. I ran as a enhance shaman in TBC was considered one of the top 2 or 3 on my server. Than leveled a dk in WoTLK, and recently rolled a druid to pvp with my brother, but took him into pve because his total dps output in awful gear was better than my dk's in decent raiding gear. My DK can push between 5-7k dps in 25 man rain in ToC 10 level gear at the moment, and my druid is pushing 3.5k in naxx 10 level gear. I am not making any attempt to boast of my skill level simply stating that I generally make an effort to learn my class and play it to be the best.
So when studying up on Feral dps, I ran into a multitude of different answers (elitist jerks is so outdated on it now that it's a joke), and couldn't find a reliable read here. Since the agi/arp numbers were so similar I wanted to know if there was a simpler way of seeing it. From what I have read especially on here it goes something similar to this.
"If you have Grim Troll or Mjonir's Runestone, than gem ArP, if you don't than gem Agility unless you have the ability to get to 1400 ArP without those two. Doing that requires gearing specifically for ArP. Otherwise gem Agility"
Is that a close summary? I ran the numbers if I gem ArP right now, I lose 3 percent crt and a few AP, but gain 20 percent more ArP. My ArP will jump from 31 percent to 52 percent, while my crit outside of cat form goes from 33.9% to 31.20 percent.
Another odd situation that I see is in weapon enchanting, I have seen Mongoose and Berzerk as the two popular choices. Is this affirmative or is Berzerking the clear number 1?
Post by
Heckler
"If you have Grim Troll or Mjonir's Runestone, than gem ArP, if you don't than gem Agility unless you have the ability to get to 1400 ArP without those two. Doing that requires gearing specifically for ArP. Otherwise gem Agility"
Yeah, that's probably pretty good, but I think 900-1000 is a safe number, 1400 would be more-or-less impossible. But even 900-1000 is really only achievable if you're specifically trying to do it.
Another odd situation that I see is in weapon enchanting, I have seen Mongoose and Berzerk as the two popular choices. Is this affirmative or is Berzerking the clear number 1?
Berserking is clearly superior at low levels, Mongoose gets better and better as you gear up, eventually surpassing Berserking.
Post by
415932
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
razisgosu
imo it all depends on player choice and gear level the way you gem. at low gear levels your crit and atk power prob won't be high enough so you generally gem for agility to increase that, as well as go mongoose to boost it further.
at higher gear levels you should have easily the 50% minimum crit for cat dps so you can either continue to increase your crit or go armor pen. i find that in my current gear setup i am at about 65% crit raid buffed with procs, which is very close to the crit soft cap, so i am gemming full armor pen. i currently have about 70% armor pen and about 75%+ when executioner procs.
would getting softcap on armorpen and gemming agility provide a better benefit? perhaps. it's all based on player choice.
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Trollbane&n=Razisgosu
i may or may not be in tank gear.
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