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Post by
Skreeran
As a 14 year old, she is not yet a legal adult and thus is still subject to my authority. So I veto it because she is too young.
Post by
MyTie
As a 14 year old, she is not yet a legal adult and thus is still subject to my authority. So I veto it because she is too young.
Too young for what? Why? What specifically is wrong with it?
Post by
Skreeran
I know where you're going with this, but I'll answer anyway: I would not want my 14 year old daughter to be advertising promiscuity.
Now you're going to say "Well, a woman who dresses in a way not advertising promiscuity might not attract the same people who would date rape her. Without putting any of the blame on the victim, is it really so hard to just dress differently as a precaution?"
To which I have two questions:
1. What would you do about that? Clearly you want change. Are you trying to change the standard, or at you telling me personally?
2. If you're trying to change the standard, who says the clothing advertising promiscuity won't change to suit it? Maybe instead of thongs and mini-skirts, it'd be low-ish cut tops and short-ish skirts.
This is assuming rapists are even motivated by attraction, which I still don't really buy.
Post by
Magician22773
Why does everyone have to run as far to either extreme when trying to make their point?
Its either burkas or its thongs....why can't anyone see that a woman can be attractive, without going to an extreme? And why can't you suggest modest dress, without being accused of wanting a woman in a burka?
To me, it's pretty simple. Skirts should be somewhere around or below the knee. Cleavage should be minimal, or none. Navels should be covered. If your pants are so tight, that you 'need' to wear a thong, or no underwear...they are too tight.
Seems simple enough to me...
I do like MyTie's 14 yr old daughter example. If you would not allow her to wear it, it probably should not be worn...period.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
It's always seemed to me that modesty is self-perpetuating. What I mean by that is that when you arbitrarily enforce a specific code of modesty in a society for long enough and at a deep enough level, that becomes the natural standard. I don't believe there is some absolute standard of modesty, and I surely wouldn't force other people to follow one. To me, modesty is whatever you choose it to be and whatever you perceive it to be.
Post by
Gone
I do like MyTie's 14 yr old daughter example. If you would not allow her to wear it, it probably should not be worn...period.
Two problems with that.
1) Everybody holds their children to a higher standard. Every father wants his daughter to be an innocent little girl forever.
2) Parents have the right to enforce regulations on their children, but not on other people.
Post by
Skreeran
It's always seemed to me that modesty is self-perpetuating. What I mean by that is that when you arbitrarily enforce a specific code of modesty in a society for long enough and at a deep enough level, that becomes the natural standard. I don't believe there is some absolute standard of modesty, and I surely wouldn't force other people to follow one. To me, modesty is whatever you choose it to be and whatever you perceive it to be.Assuming I'm correctly interpreting this, this is exactly what I'm saying.
I do like MyTie's 14 yr old daughter example. If you would not allow her to wear it, it probably should not be worn...period.
Two problems with that.
1) Everybody holds their children to a higher standard. Every father wants his daughter to be an innocent little girl forever.
2) Parents have the right to enforce regulations on their children, but not on other people.This too.
Post by
MyTie
advertising promiscuityI'm perplexed by this Skreeran. I'm at a loss for logic when considering your position. You seem to understand perfectly well what is wrong with what I would like to discourage, and seem to understand what is right about what I want to encourage. You understand perfectly well that advertising promiscuity isn't something that
should
be done, nor encouraged.
Don't you see Skreeran, this isn't about rape. This is, as a society, about not encouraging women to advertise promiscuity. Why? Because, as Ryja so eloquently put about that standard, it is a:
higher standard
Now, Skree, what amazes me, truly, is that we all agree that modesty is a virtue to be attained, and a good standard, one that is higher than not. We agree that it is something of a quality. I find it disgusting, that we could agree that something is virtuous, and of a higher standard, and not agree that we should encourage women, or really, society as a whole, to embrace such higher standards. In fact, the only way you seem to be able to argue against this virtuous encouragement, is to portray one of two straw men. The first of which is entirely fictitious, which is that this is going to slide down the slippery slope into a religious despot in which women are forced to cover their heads, but my argument has zero to do with
forcing
anything, merely what a woman
should choose
to do. The second is entirely beside the point, and that is the debate about whether or not it deters rape, which if I were to concede this entirely, still wouldn't mean that women shouldn't be modest. Why am I so amazed? Because my mind is trying to contemplate why you would argue against the virtuous encouragement at all. Because I cannot fathom how we could agree that this virtue is something to be encouraged in the ones we love, but somehow NOT in society at large, and even taken a step further, and encouraged
against
it. It seems to follow your logic, that it would be something you would want for your daughter, the one you love, but not society at large. Doesn't that present some cognitive dissonance in your mind? It would make more logical sense to me if you did not value virtuous modesty at all. That would at least be consistent. But, you value it. And, you value women, through feminism, by encouraging them to embrace something you don't think should be sought. I'm amazed. I just can't figure out why. Further, people have built whole movements around this nonsensical approach to empowerment. Even further, this nonsensical approach has the unfortunate side effect of masquerading around as something that actually is worth fighting for, and making side show horror of something that should be one of the crown jewel causes of the world. Instead of feminism being thought of as a way to help women, it is often associated with these most baseless desires for a hatred of virtues, ones that you yourself value. The thing is, most people see through that. That's why I despise, as so many do, what you consider to be feminism. As the saying goes,
this is why we can't have nice things
. And so, something that should be about helping women, is made into #$%^ walks, and people who would otherwise have signed onto a cause to help women, are completely turned off to the idea. They can't make sense of it either. What does encouraging women to dress like &*!@s do to help them? What does it do to strengthen their serious roles in society? What does it do to portray their value? The only two reasons I can come up with, are, firstly that it seems trendy, or possibly, secondly, you've heard others saying it and it sounded nice, so you adopted it. Give a woman a choice, right? Well, since no one is arguing against her choice, and rape isn't the issue we are discussing presently, explain why women should be encouraged to dress ^&*!ty, keeping your argument consistent that it is a negative thing.
And so, I'm perplexed. Please, Skreeran, sort it out for me. I'm going to head to bed now, but I look forward to this entertaining explanation first thing while I eat my breakfast.
Post by
Skreeran
Well, I would, but I am tired and clearing this up is going to take a big post. I'll do it tomorrow.
Post by
Patty
It's always seemed to me that modesty is self-perpetuating. What I mean by that is that when you arbitrarily enforce a specific code of modesty in a society for long enough and at a deep enough level, that becomes the natural standard. I don't believe there is some absolute standard of modesty, and I surely wouldn't force other people to follow one. To me, modesty is whatever you choose it to be and whatever you perceive it to be.
Precisely my thoughts. I also think that's why trying to "police" modesty (which is almost always disproportionately focused against women), for want of a better term, is bull!@#$.
Post by
Squishalot
Its either burkas or its thongs....why can't anyone see that a woman can be attractive, without going to an extreme? And why can't you suggest modest dress, without being accused of wanting a woman in a burka?
I believe the issue is that we shouldn't be suggesting anything in the first place. By trying to suggest an arbitrary dress code is appropriate (skirts and t-shirts, for example), you're not being any better than the person trying to suggest another arbitrary dress code is appropriate (thongs or burqas).
Now, some people are suggesting that thongs and low cut tops advertise promiscuity or display overt sexuality and that it's not appropriate for that to happen. I'd like to point out that the point of wearing a burqa is because the sight of a woman's hair and face and elbows and ankles are considered to be overt displays of sexuality in other parts of the world. This is why 'extreme' comparisons are appropriate, as the message being presented is exactly the same.
I've had this argument with my girlfriend many times in the past, and come to peace with her view of the issue. If our future daughter wants to wear crop tops and show cleavage and wear tight skinny jeans with holes in them in obscure places, that's her choice, and we won't stop her, because we will have made sure that she has made an educated, balanced decision to do so, being aware of the potential consequences. Likewise, if our future son wants to wear lipstick and nail polish to school, then unless it's against policy or something, we won't stop him for the same reasons. If our children make an educated choice and choose to act while in full possession of all the facts and consequences at their disposal (which we will ensure that they have), then all the power to them to do so.
Post by
134377
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MyTie
trying to "police" modesty
Who exactly suggested this was a good idea?pikeyboy said:
Men try to do that all the time.
This thread is about women. If it were about men, I would be saying the exact same thing.
No, MyTie, this thread is about feminism. That is, the idea that men and women should have equality in every aspect of life. At the moment, that is not the case. It stands to reason then, that this thread is as much about men as women, as the disparity causing the discontent involves men.
Would you like to discuss ways that men wear their clothes and how they try to attract people? That just seemed off topic to me.
Post by
134377
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MyTie
Men and women wear different garments? This is a problem? Our bodies are different. Our differences are not necessarily reflections of weakness. This is why I have such a problem with the term "equal". Men and women aren't equal. Men and women, quite simply, aren't equivalent. I don't think one is better than the other, but we certainly aren't the same. We should find a term that embraces our differences, but at the same time encourages us to treat each other, and ourselves, respectfully. That's what I feel this is all about, respect. And that begins by respecting yourself.As you know, I fancy both women and men.
No, I didn't know that. I don't have a quick reference sheet of pikeyboy facts. I just don't care who, or what, you fancy.
Post by
Patty
Here's a pretty good video introducing women in the media and in positions of power, and how there's still a lot of work to be done to achieve equality.
It takes a couple of minutes to get going, though.
Post by
Skreeran
I'm perplexed by this Skreeran. I'm at a loss for logic when considering your position. You seem to understand perfectly well what is wrong with what I would like to discourage, and seem to understand what is right about what I want to encourage. You understand perfectly well that advertising promiscuity isn't something that should be done, nor encouraged.
Don't you see Skreeran, this isn't about rape. This is, as a society, about not encouraging women to advertise promiscuity. Why? Because, as Ryja so eloquently put about that standard, it is a:
higher standard
Let me clear this up. I do not give a single flying fanny one way or another about promiscuity. I don’t think advertising promiscuity is something that
should
be done, or something that
should not
be done. That is none of my business. I am not going to judge someone else by how they choose to live their life.
I would not let my
fourteen year old daughter
advertise promiscuity, because I most likely would not deem her mentally or emotionally up to the task of making those kind of life decisions about love, parenthood, or sexual gratification. I would not let her advertise promiscuity until I was 100% certain that she was psychologically mature enough to make those decisions for herself, instead of me making them for her.
In fact, the only way you seem to be able to argue against this virtuous encouragement, is to portray one of two straw men. The first of which is entirely fictitious, which is that this is going to slide down the slippery slope into a religious despot in which women are forced to cover their heads, but my argument has zero to do with forcing anything, merely what a woman should choose to do.
And as Squishalot said, my concern had nothing to do with religion. I believe the issue is that we shouldn't be suggesting anything in the first place. By trying to suggest an arbitrary dress code is appropriate (skirts and t-shirts, for example), you're not being any better than the person trying to suggest another arbitrary dress code is appropriate (thongs or burqas).
If society were to suddenly dress “to a higher standard” as you put it, we’d be right back at square one. People would dress differently, but they’d advertise promiscuity no less. The sexy clothing would just be a different fashion.
In Saudi Arabia,
this
is dressing provocatively. So that we can be clear here, I am not commenting on the religious laws
mandating
modesty. I’m saying that no matter how modest society becomes, it just returns to the status quo. Nothing changes. Modest becomes the new sexy, and ridiculous becomes the new modest. You’re trying to change human nature, but all that would change is the clothes we wear.
What does encouraging women to dress like &*!@s do to help them? What does it do to strengthen their serious roles in society? What does it do to portray their value? The only two reasons I can come up with, are, firstly that it seems trendy, or possibly, secondly, you've heard others saying it and it sounded nice, so you adopted it. Give a woman a choice, right? Well, since no one is arguing against her choice, and rape isn't the issue we are discussing presently, explain why women should be encouraged to dress ^&*!ty, keeping your argument consistent that it is a negative thing.
I am
NOT
encouraging women to dress %$#@ily. Get that out of your head right now. I am
NOT
encouraging women to dress any way over any other way. I am keeping my nose out of their lives, because I am myself, and they are themselves, and I have no right to tell them how to live their lives unless it hurts someone else.
Post by
MyTie
And as Squishalot said,
Didn't read it then, not reading it now.
~the rest of what you said~
I was mistaken. I thought you were counting modesty to be a value. Now that that is cleared up, I see you just don't value what I value. No wonder we arrived at different conclusions. Thanks for explaining it.
Post by
Squishalot
Didn't read it then, not reading it now.
And there I thought your reply to asakawa in the Bin meant that you were actually paying some attention to what we were generally posting and that your lack of replying generally was just a continuation of your passive aggressive campaign against the mods.
Maybe I should get more involved in these discussions.
Post by
Magician22773
Maybe I should get more involved in these discussions.
Speaking of passive aggresive.
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