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Post by
Gone
Is it worth making people uncomfortable over such a silly taboo though? It doesn't oppress anybody, or cause any conceivable harm for women to keep their tops on.
Post by
Adamsm
Yes; because the fact that people get so weirded out over nudity is silly.
Post by
Gone
Yes; because the fact that people get so weirded out over nudity is silly.
That's you making a judgment though. I agree with you to a certain extent, but who are we to decide what somebody else is comfortable/uncomfortable with is silly or not.
Post by
Adamsm
Yes; because the fact that people get so weirded out over nudity is silly.
That's you making a judgment though. I agree with you to a certain extent, but who are we to decide if somebody else is comfortable/uncomfortable with is silly or not.
Which is my point; a lot of people are uncomfortable with it because that's what they have been taught. Start teaching that it's okay to be naked, and then maybe that uncomfortableness will go away so that the fact that a woman wants to walk around with her ta-ta's out won't cause a stir.
Post by
Gone
Yes; because the fact that people get so weirded out over nudity is silly.
That's you making a judgment though. I agree with you to a certain extent, but who are we to decide if somebody else is comfortable/uncomfortable with is silly or not.
Which is my point; a lot of people are uncomfortable with it because that's what they have been taught. Start teaching that it's okay to be naked, and then maybe that uncomfortableness will go away so that the fact that a woman wants to walk around with her ta-ta's out won't cause a stir.
Who is to say that is what should be done though? You can brainwash somebody into thinking that pain is pleasure, it doesn't mean that you should, nor that a negative perception of pain is a taboo.
You might say that the taboo should be broken, but those who don't support the idea say the opposite. What gives you the right to say it should be broken based on only your own beliefs?
I believe that above all else people have the right to feel comfortable and emotionally 'safe' in their own community. If this taboo actually oppressed people or infringed on somebody's rights, I would say that without a doubt it should be broken. But in this case? Idk, it's more ambiguous.
Post by
Adamsm
To me it sorta of does infringe though; it teaches people they should be embarrassed about their bodies, to act like seeing someone nude is wrong or strange. Think of all the nudity jokes out there; they wouldn't be as bad if it wasn't for the fact that nudity is such a taboo in the Western world.
I do think it would be better if people weren't so uptight about their bodies.
Post by
Gone
Idk if I agree on that, but I see where you're coming from.
Post by
Skreeran
I just don't see why your side has to get the law involved. Okay, we disagree. That's fine.
Why is it that then that a woman with my PoV gets arrested and a woman with yours doesn't?
I'm not saying that all women should go topless from now on. If you think it's wrong
that's fine.
But all that changing the law does is put us on equal ground. You believe what you want to believe, and I'll believe what I want to believe, and neither of us gets arrested.
Post by
Gone
I just don't see why your side has to get the law involved. Okay, we disagree. That's fine.
If a man went down to the beach and started forcing sweaters onto every women who was in a bikini, he would be arrested.
Why is it that then that a woman with my PoV gets arrested and a woman with yours doesn't?
A woman with your POV doesn't. People can have whatever point of view that they want, but if they break a law for their beliefs, right or not, they will be arrested.
but all that changing the law does is put us on equal ground. You believe what you want to believe, and I'll believe what I want to believe, and neither of us gets arrested.
Because that wouldn't put people on equal footing. People who are against this law don't want it illegal because they don't want to go around in public topless, they want it illegal because they don't want to see other people going around in public topless. It's not a middle ground type of situation, it's either side A wins of side B wins.
EDIT: For the record, I never said I was personally on one side or another.
Post by
Skreeran
If a man went down to the beach and started forcing sweaters onto every women who was in a bikini, he would be arrested.But that's essentially what this law is doing. It's mandating a certain article of clothing, even upon those who don't share that taboo.
A woman with your POV doesn't. People can have whatever point of view that they want, but if they break a law for their beliefs, right or not, they will be arrested.I meant it in the sense of "A woman
expressing
her point of view." If a woman wants to wear a shirt so that people can't see her breasts, she will not go to jail. But a woman doesn't want to wear a shirt, because she doesn't care if people see her breasts, she will.
Because that wouldn't put people on equal footing. People who are against this law don't want it illegal because they don't want to go around in public topless, they want it illegal because they don't want to see other people going around in public topless. It's not a middle ground type of situation, it's either side A wins of side B wins.But why should you (I mean you figuratively, not literally) have any right to tell people how to dress? How exactly does this hurt you or infringe upon your rights in any way?
Post by
Gone
Because that wouldn't put people on equal footing. People who are against this law don't want it illegal because they don't want to go around in public topless, they want it illegal because they don't want to see other people going around in public topless. It's not a middle ground type of situation, it's either side A wins of side B wins.But why should you (I mean you figuratively, not literally) have any right to tell people how to dress? How exactly does this hurt you or infringe upon your rights in any way?
Because it doesn't just effect you, other people have to see it. And it's not telling people how to dress, it's just telling them to dress, period. Look the fact is, we live in a social society, and as long as that is the case, we all have the right to be comfortable. We put a government in place to set certain regulations. As much as we like to talk about big brother like a third party entity, he is us, we are the government. We created it, we run it, and it serves us.
And we can talk about taboos and African tribes all we want, the fact is breasts today are sexual organs. How would you feel if you went to work every day and the guy sitting across from you had a shirt with a giant penis on it?
What would you say to a woman who has small children, and doesn't want them exposed to public nudity?
Make your case to her without saying "well nudity doesn't really matter, it's just a taboo".
Post by
Patty
Umm, right, this seems to have gotten bogged down in one specific example. I don't feel particularly strongly about women going topless, but it
is
a double standard, and as mentioned previously, breasts as primarily sexual organs
is
a mostly social construct. I also think there is a difference between wearing "@#$%ty" clothing and going topless, but I suppose they relate in the way that basically patriarchal society dictates what women - primarily - should and should not wear, or reveal, or accentuate with clothing. It's simply not the place of a social structure historically favouring men to make demands of women like that, imo.
I feel that if wearing "%^&*ty" clothes was less taboo, and society as a whole was exposed to more of the female body on a day to day basis without being shamed and judged for it (I don't necessarily mean naked here, and I hope you get my meaning) and became more acclimatised to seeing women's legs, or the curve of their breasts, or whatever, these things would be normalised and stop being fetishised. I mean, legs are a good example, actually. Whilst you can make the argument that breasts are secondary sex organs, well, legs are not. Being one gender does not preclude having them, or not. Yet women's legs are sexualised to a point where, for example in the school case linked a few pages ago, they're not allowed to be exposed outside of P.E. because it distracts horny boys. That's a cop out. The way to stop over-sexualisation is to normalise things and stop the objectification of women in the media. I mean, what if I, as a gay guy, pushed an agenda where things that distracted
me
were banned from school life? It's simply not the place of everyone else to cater to me because I perceive something as sexual, when it really isn't.
Linking it back to why @#$% shaming is connected with victim blaming:
This kind of hyper-sexualisation of women's bodies is basically a form of objectification. Therefore, when one gets attacked in "^&*!ty" clothes, there is a belief that "well, she shouldn't have put everything on display like that anyway!".
Post by
Skreeran
"Excuse me. I'm sorry that my choice of dress offends you, but it's my right to wear my own body the way I like most."
Were it me, I would probably put on a shirt to be polite, but my point is that unless someone else is hurt, I think people have to right to treat their bodies however they like, be that though tattoos, piercings, choice of clothes, etc. I may not always appreciate how they treat their bodies, but it's their body, and assuming they are a responsible adult, I see no reason why I should ever be allowed to step in and legally prohibit them from wearing their body the way they want.
And even, for some reason, we cannot ever allow people to expose their genitals in public (which is really kinda pointless, in my opinion, but
one could argue that it's biological
), I still contend that breasts are only artificially treated as sex organs. Physiologically, they have no role in sex at all, and many cultures had no qualms about exposing the breasts.
Post by
Gone
"Excuse me. I'm sorry that my choice of dress offends you, but it's my right to wear my own body the way I like most."
Were it me, I would probably put on a shirt to be polite, but my point is that unless someone else is hurt, I think people have to right to treat their bodies however they like, be that though tattoos, piercings, choice of clothes, etc. I may not always appreciate how they treat their bodies, but it's their body, and assuming they are a responsible adult, I see no reason why I should ever be allowed to step in and legally prohibit them from wearing their body the way they want.
And even, for some reason, we cannot ever allow people to expose their genitals in public (which is really kinda pointless, in my opinion, but
one could argue that it's biological
), I still contend that breasts are only artificially treated as sex organs. Physiologically, they have no role in sex at all, and many cultures had no qualms about exposing the breasts.
Bringing up what culture A is ok with doesn't have any place in a debate about what is socially acceptable in culture B. If another culture doesn't look at breasts as sexual organs then that's good for them, but their customs have no bearing on the social context of our own culture.
Do I think there is anything morally wrong with women dressing however they want? No. However this is a discussion on what is and is not socially acceptable. I also wanna point out that wearing revealing cloths isn't the same as wearing no cloths.
When you are in public, the things you display affect those around you. Yes maybe it's your body, but its also projecting something to everybody else. Don't you think that people have a say in what is and isn't acceptable in the public places that they all share?
Post by
Skreeran
Breasts
physiologically
not
sex organs. The fact that
our
culture has associated them as such doesn't particularly compel me to treat them as such.
Do I think there is anything morally wrong with women dressing however they want? No. However this is a discussion on what is and is not socially acceptable.And I think the law should line up with what is morally acceptable, from as objective a standpoint as we can get.
Again, a man who watches My Little Pony is not socially acceptable. I promise you. And yet it's within my rights to express myself the way I want.
I also wanna point out that wearing revealing cloths isn't the same as wearing no cloths.I still can't really see how. It's just the extreme end of the scale.
When you are in public, the things you display affect those around you. Yes maybe it's your body, but its also projecting something to everybody else. Don't you think that people have a say in what is and isn't acceptable in the public places that they all share?Sure. They can say they don't like it. They can ask you to change. They can even say it's wrong or a sin or that you're going to hell for it. It's when you start making it into law that you start infringing on other peoples' rights.
But I suppose, like Patty said, we're getting off topic. You can have the last word if you like.
Post by
Gone
Nah at this point we are just arguing in circles. I do see where you are coming from, and I agree with a lot of it. Idk though, I guess what prevents me from getting 100% behind it is when I think about people with kids and how it might cause issues. The rest is just semantics really.
Post by
Adamsm
To the shirt with a penis on it; after the first day, I'd doubt I'd even notice it anymore.
To the thing about kids: Kids see tittys, they see them as babies, they probably see them on TV, they possibly see their mommies...which goes back to my thought about why that taboo needs to go away; tittys happen, people need to stop acting like there is something embarrassing about them.
Post by
Gone
To the shirt with a penis on it; after the first day, I'd doubt I'd even notice it anymore.
To the thing about kids: Kids see tittys, they see them as babies, they probably see them on TV, they possibly see their mommies...which goes back to my thought about why that taboo needs to go away; tittys happen, people need to stop acting like there is something embarrassing about them.
Some parents don't want their kids exposed (no pun intended) to it, and people have a right to raise their kids however they want. I'm not debating this anymore though, as I said to Skree, it's just going in circles.
Post by
Patty
I wish I could go. :(
Edit; also, on request: women respect themselves by wearing what makes them feel comfortable, and not by wearing what other people think is appropriate for them to wear, or to wear to avoid rape. That is women being respectful of themselves. Not some vague idea of "appropriateness" defined by a man.
Post by
MyTie
I wish I could go. :(
Edit; also, on request: women respect themselves by wearing what makes them feel comfortable, and not by wearing what other people think is appropriate for them to wear, or to wear to avoid rape. That is women being respectful of themselves. Not some vague idea of "appropriateness" defined by a man.
1) Though your disregard for modesty may seem trendy now, it can't end well for future generations to be so encouraged to sexualize themselves. I feel this is less a push for feminism, and simply a manifestation of a hatred for morality.
2) THIS DOESN'T MATTER. You are discussing a first world problem, in a thread about people getting mutilated, burned by acid, drowned, etc. You make the cause look foolish.
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