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@ Feminism
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Post by
MyTie
WHY ARE WE YELLING?
It's not really yelling, it's just making your text hard to read to make the point that what you have to say is important, which has the inverse effect of showing that what you normally post isn't important.
Post by
Skreeran
I'm just hoping that we don't devolve into a screaming contest like we did a few nights ago.
Post by
Orranis
it cheapens the actual travesties in the world
I think this is the root of the argument that I have to fundamentally disagree with. I don't agree that discussing sexism in America (and I believe it's a lot worse than you think, there are a couple articles you could read on women 'greek' culture in American colleges that would make you sick to your stomach) actually in any way devalues travesties elsewhere, nor do I believe that it's realistic to believe that these issues are actively 'stealing' attention away from the real travesties 'elsewhere.' I think they're two very separate issues that you cannot easily compare. Telling us we shouldn't discuss sexism in western culture while their are women in foreign countries and cultures who are suffering much worse conditions is the equivalent of telling a game design teams art team that it shouldn't be focusing on improving graphics until core gameplay issues are addressed - It's just not the same effort that's being used.
Edit: Also, I agree with you to a certain extent that especially educationally and to a lesser extent financially sexism is not nearly as large an issue as it was in the past - still worth looking at, but generally seem to be progressing forward and have seen huge improvements - however, I think you're entirely ignoring other topics that have not seen as much progress nor do they seem to be actively improving, such as western rape-culture.
Post by
1069282
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Patty
I have nothing against ladys and I think they need more rights. This sound wreid but what I have seen that more rights women gets then girlyer men gets. I'n Finland we have 2 kind of people. Neutral and "Womens place is in the kitchen". It really wreid... But
This
sound stupid but here it goes... What I have seen women want just the good rights. Not things like that you must go to army and stuff. Also what I have seen people are too interested about womens problems but they forget mens problems. In Finland there is lots of men who need pchycological help (read this from book and from newspaper). Wreid isn't it?
Throughout this thread, it's been pointed out that a lot of men's issues stem from backfiring patriarchy. Patriarchy is what feminism is against. Therefore, men who might be disenfranchised because of who they are or how they express themselves have a lot to gain by supporting feminism.
Post by
Gone
So here's a question. What do you guys (and gals) think about women who use their sexuality to their advantage in other areas of life. Not necessarily sleeping around, but using their looks to get what they want.
Generally whenever I bring up this issue people tend to fall into one of two amps. Do you think it's detrimental to feminism, enforcing the idea of women as nothing but sex objects? Or do you think it's another way of women standing up and taking control to make up for the disadvantages their gender faces in today's society?
Post by
Skreeran
I generally don't like it, but I generally don't like manipulative people regardless of gender.
Post by
240140
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Patty
So here's a question. What do you guys (and gals) think about women who use their sexuality to their advantage in other areas of life. Not necessarily sleeping around, but using their looks to get what they want.
Generally whenever I bring up this issue people tend to fall into one of two amps. Do you think it's detrimental to feminism, enforcing the idea of women as nothing but sex objects? Or do you think it's another way of women standing up and taking control to make up for the disadvantages their gender faces in today's society?
I think it's the same as a guy doing it - because guys do it too. I mean, I think it's an interesting way to use society's perceptions of women as a weapon against them, but if it actually, deeply hurts somebody else, or they'd cry rape for their own benefit, or something like that, then that's very harmful and wrong. But I think using what you've got to get what you want or need, regardless of what it is, is what people generally tend to do anyway.
Post by
MyTie
women who use their sexuality to their advantageguys do it too
Really? We aren't talking just like, flirting, but flaunting
sexuality
. Exactly how would a guy do this? Wear tight pants and stuff a roll of socks down the front? Wear a muscle shirt? I mean, how is anything guys do even
comparable
to a woman using her sexuality. It's not even the same thing remotely.
Post by
240140
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
ElhonnaDS
I would say that, when I watch small claims cases on TV, like 20% of them are women suing for money that they gave or lent to men who were stringing them along knowing they were interested, and using that to get stuff out of them. I think I see that more than I see the reverse, though whether that's because the women are more likely to sue on daytime TV or because it happens more often that way I won't guess.
Also, a feminist response to why you don't see it in the business world as much, is because there are a lot fewer women in positions of power.
Tell me MyTie, why do you believe that a man CAN'T use his sexuality in the same way a woman can? Couldn't undo the top couple of buttons on his shirt, go shirtless, lay his head on a girl's shoulder and pretend flirt, etc.? I knew a guy in college who knew that I had a thing for him once answer his dorm door in his boxers, when he totally could have taken 3 seconds and put on pants. There was a guy that I worked a (pretty unprofessional) sales job with who would put his arm around me and one or two of the other girls all the time at morning meetings and such, and flirt, and then would ask us for favors like gas money, helping him pull overtime to meet sales goals, etc.(##RESPBREAK##)8##DELIM##ElhonnaDS##DELIM##
Post by
MyTie
@Elhonna - women are just more sexualized than men, by society. Right or not, women's bodies have a lot more focus on attractiveness. Maybe men are just overall more shallow, but a woman unbuttoning her top for buttons and wearing a pushup bra will show some cleavage, which will have an effect, but a man not buttoning his top few buttons will show a hairy chest, and perhaps some cleavage too, which will also have an effect, but not a positive one, unless there's someone attracted to hair.
I'm not saying that men CAN'T do it, but, come on. Come on. Just off the top of my head, I thought about instances where girls and guys might both wear provocative clothing, and for some reason disco skating came to my mind (they seem like odd people), so I google searched the
male
and
female
version.
Society has just sexualied women more, so they can use that easier.
Post by
Skreeran
I think sexuality isn't even the issue. Assume, for the sake of discussion, that women are more capable of using their sexuality to manipulate men. That doesn't mean at all that men are thus incapable of manipulating women. There are all sorts of manipulative tricks, and sexual manipulation is only one of them. I don't think it really matters whether or not men are as capable as women at seducing people or not, because that's only a small part of a very large body of manipulation techniques.
It feels like arguing just for the sake of arguing some more. I don't know about the rest of you, but I think manipulating other people is wrong, and I don't think it has very much to do with feminism or gender equality. Manipulative people aren't going to stop being manipulative, so why argue about that?
Post by
Magician22773
Is it possible that one of the issues with 'feminism', is that it has...too many 'issues'?
Just in this topic alone we have been through rape, appearance, education, wages, sexual manipulation, (holy crap....anyone notice that manipulation starts with....
man
!), abortion, oh, and video games, can't forget those....not to mention their is spousal abuse, sexual exploitation, discrimination....I mean the list could go on and on an on. And that is only 'Western' issues. Once you get into 2nd and 3rd world countries, it gets even uglier, bringing absolute
Human
rights issues into play, let alone
Women's
rights.
Perhaps focusing energies on some of the more 'important' (please note the "more" there....that does not imply they all are not important, just that some are more important than others), would be a better approach?
Most of these issues that I would classify as of the highest importance would be rape, abuse, sexual slavery, and the Human rights violations. And, not surprisingly, I don't think anyone here would have too much disagreement with any of those issues either. Hell...I am pretty sure I have been labeled the Devil Incarnate in this thread by nearly everyone....and I would be glad to, not just agree, but to
support
these types of issues. Find me a petition to sign to help protect women from rape, and you have my signature. As a matter of fact..
here
is one that I believe will do just that, in a most effective manner.
And, lets face it. There are issues that, no matter how much you try, you are not going to solve here...or likely anywhere else, because they also are in direct conflict with other causes issues....abortion being the biggest one that comes to mind. If the feminist cause really wants to garner support, that issue should be left to be battled on its own. Because, as long as it stands as a part of (and it seems it is a very prominent part of it), you will never have my, or millions and millions of others, full support.
Post by
Gone
There is defiantly more of a focus on women's sexuality than men. I think more often than not in cases where men do this, it's more a matter of manipulating the other persons feelings their own sexuality.
To add another question, since most people are in favor of a woman's right to use whatever weapons she's got. Is it somehow more wrong when a man does it than when a woman does so? Even if it's not, is your initial perception if it any different?
Post by
wrlwnd
@Elhonna - women are just more sexualized than men, by society. Right or not, women's bodies have a lot more focus on attractiveness. Maybe men are just overall more shallow, but a woman unbuttoning her top for buttons and wearing a pushup bra will show some cleavage, which will have an effect, but a man not buttoning his top few buttons will show a hairy chest, and perhaps some cleavage too, which will also have an effect, but not a positive one, unless there's someone attracted to hair.
I'm not saying that men CAN'T do it, but, come on. Come on. Just off the top of my head, I thought about instances where girls and guys might both wear provocative clothing, and for some reason disco skating came to my mind (they seem like odd people), so I google searched the
male
and
female
version.
Society has just sexualied women more, so they can use that easier.
I have been following this for several days and this comment pulled me into a response.
@MyTie
Yes, due to the male dominated society that we live in it is more seen that women use their sexuality for advantages, but I have seen way to many times where men do the same in female dominated groups of people. As far as I am concerned either way is just plain wrong.
I have always been a firm believer in letting any person prove their worth on their merits. Yes, I have my biases, but I am
normally
good at overcoming them.
I have stayed out mostly due to the RADICAL feminists that I have dealt with in my past, but I always enjoy good conversation on topics such as this. I have learned through the years that I can easily say the wrong things and get into poo flinging contests to easily, therefore it is many times better to stay quiet until I cannot do so any longer.
Yes I am a male and like you, MyTie, I am concerned about my stepdaughters and granddaughters, But there is not much that I can do other than show them, my stepson and grandsons the way that I think they and every woman should be treated. I do this in all my interactions with people and expect the same out of others. If I do not get the same respect I will refuse to deal with any one that I deem not worth my time, but this will always be based on their behavious and attitudes as I view them.
Post by
MyTie
Yes I am a male and like you, MyTie, I am concerned about my stepdaughters and granddaughters, But there is not much that I can do other than show them, my stepson and grandsons the way that I think they and every woman should be treated. I do this in all my interactions with people and expect the same out of others. If I do not get the same respect I will refuse to deal with any one that I deem not worth my time, but this will always be based on their behavious and attitudes as I view them.
good call, wrlwnd. Welcome to wowhead debate.
Post by
Skreeran
Saw this video today.
Edit: Still watching the video, and I don't want to prematurely add my assent, but it seems to be a meritorious response to the initial Anita Sarkeesian video.
Edit: Finished it, and it really was pretty good. I really liked the uploader's positive attitude. Rather than attacking or criticizing Anita (like so many others have done), she politely disagrees on some points, and offers helpful advice.
Post by
557473
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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