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Explain the Math to Me (Leveling w/ Sub)
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Post by
trendon
I have had two different stints with Wow; a year before TBC dropped and now, since December. In those time spans, I've been a lurker on many forums, mostly here. I've always seen the "sub sucks for leveling" comments and I just took it as truth. That said, I never played with any specs other than sub. Even before I really understood what the hell the talent tree really was about, I was able to take a look at the three of them and say, "Yeah, that's what I want."
Mostly, I enjoy questing, BG's, and random world PvP; actually, I love open-world random fights the most. Now, sub is suited for both of them. However, I never understood the "bad for leveling" part, so feel free to scold me because I seem to be flying along just fine.
I've seen the numbers and clearly combat rogues are the best at DPS, but who really cares about sustained DPS when clearing mobs for a quest? Here is a typical path for me while questing.
1. Get quest, locate mobs/objectives.
2. Stealth > premed > ShS > Ambush > Evis > Dead (or another hemo/evis)
3. Locate next target
4. Stealth > (maybe) premed > CS > hemo, hemo, hemo > KS > hemo/evis
5. Locate next target
6. Return to 2
I absolutely carve through mobs. Even further, I am rarely ever killed in the world even by guys skulled to me because of the fantastic escapability that sub provides. "oh, that blind didn't work?" Prep. "have another and, plus, I just vanished ... again." Does that not add to the value of sub? How much DPS can be generated on a corpse run?
Now, mind you, I do not understand the math of this game, largely because I don't really care too much. I gather that ambush doesn't "scale well" which I do not understand, to be honest.
So, please help me. Like I said, I won't come off of sub; even if I dual spec, I'll still go a few levels down. However, I am not opposed to learning something new.
Thanks for your time.
Post by
GenXCub
This might turn into a "why do you hemo with a dagger?" post...
Post by
300628
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
trendon
This might turn into a "why do you hemo with a dagger?" post...
I go back and forth. Although, I am coming off of hemo as I just recently saw the gross difference between swords and daggers with hemo so back to SS, maybe with the glyph.
Post by
trendon
From what you said you enjoy doing sub would be the best way to go. As for lvling i jumped around a lot but mostly stayed sub becaues backstab used to be freakin crazy (heard it was reduced). I would CS backstab, KS, backstab, gg. Also after a few 70 raids and heroics i purchesed the t6 equiv dagger (BC). I would go to the isle that everyone loved doing dailies on and i would go around f'n the alliance up. Sub is great for world pvp/bgs or just goofing off. Plus its nice when you wait for the right moment to get in that rediculously large crit on some guy sitting down below 30% health "CHA-CHING". Not sure what it's like now in WoTLK at 80 because i lvled other classes first by my rogue is 79 so i guess i'll find out soon.
That last part is what I love. The preposterous damage you can do in two button presses. I am sure I have won fights that I shouldn't have just because I halved someone's health in one second and they lost composure.
In the end, my main point of posting this thread is too see how much, if at all, i am handicapping myself by running around with subtlety. If i were big into raids, I wouldn't even be questioning it. As it stands, though, I am more than happy to simply join a raid that will take anyone, so I don't feel too bad when I get rejected based on an armory glance.
Post by
Kelborn
For raids, you will not be taken as Subt spec. Period. No ands, ifs, or buts about it. It doesn't deal enough dps for a sustained fight, which is what a raid is. It's a burst spec designed on getting and keeping the upper hand in a quick battle, which is why it was a favorite for PvP before the buffs to Assassination.
Other than not being allowed in raids (unless you're really really good and can pull crazy dps with it), you're not handicapping yourself much at all. I liked it for leveling solo, I could Ambush crit a mob for half it's health, stun it, then backstab it for the rest. Things get hairy? Vanish. Omg AoE? Prep and another Vanish. I teamed up with my boomkin friend at 66, and I was forced to go Combat due to her killing everything before I even reached it in stealth...
You won't be able to dps multiple mobs down at once, but you do have the "ha now you can't see me" buttons to get the heck outta Dodge when things go wrong. You'll be leveling slower than a Combat rogue, but from what I can tell you'll be having a heck lot of more fun doing it.
Post by
134733
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Post by
trendon
So, I suppose, when I finally cap out and run out of pve @#$% to do besides raid, it'd behoove me to dual spec combat?
Post by
70338
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Post by
117871
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Post by
Kyura
Trendon, can you link your talent spec?
Post by
trendon
I don't know if I did this right, but
here it is
.
Would it be ridiculous to have 54 points in something as I wouldn't mind HaT since it appears that is a nice thing to have as far as making me a tad bit more attractive in raids/dungeons. I know that subtlety will never be really desirable, but I am trying to find something that will at least get me down to ShS AND let me be viable in group pve. With that, I am still unsure about whether or not I like Shadow Dance. I suppose I could get the three out of setup because, as I originally suspected, that is kinda useless. If I am relying on dodging that much, I will soon be dead anyway.
Either way, any ideas you have would be great as I am still on my first character (re: noob). That said, I am not coming off sub, I like it too much. I will soon buy the dual talent, though.
P.S. As for the blind thing, my bad. I forget what I was going for when I typed that.
Post by
116684
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Post by
Cadapalo
I personally enjoy leveling as sub as I am leveling alongside a demo warlock who can easily hold aggro while I burst stuff down. While I don't know the actual "math" I think if you really enjoy leveling as sub go for it. You are going to be leveling for quite a while so you might as well enjoy it. Also...
This might turn into a "why do you hemo with a dagger?" post...
can anyone please elaborate?
/noob
Post by
116684
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Post by
trendon
First of all, I am glad I posted this because I've learned more in this thread than I think in all my five months on WoW. I read up on normalization and came to the wiki with a formula and plugged my numbers in. Please tell me where I went wrong on the math, if I did, and what your opinion is. Thanks again, this thread has opened my eyes.
---Hemo Formula---
Lethality = (0.06 * Lethality Rank)
Sinister Calling = (0.02 * Sinister Calling Rank)
Damage Factor = 1.10 + Sinister Calling
Critical Factor = 2 + Lethality
Normalization factor = 2.4 for swords, 1.7 for daggers
Normal Hemorrhage Damage = *Damage Factor
Critical Hemorrhage Damage = Normal Hemorrhage Damage * Critical Factor
---My Stats---
Lethality = .30
Sinister Calling = .10
Damage Factor = 1.20
Critical Factor = 2.30
---USING DAGGERS---
(Also, I have
The Night Blade
sitting in my bank after opening a lockbox. Would this change anything?
AP = 980
MH Damage (
Screaming Dagger
) = 80.5
OH Damage (
Hellfire Skiver
) = 62
Total Weapon Damage = 142.5
Lethality = .30
Sinister Calling = .10
Damage Factor = 1.20
Critical Factor = 2.30
Normalization factor = 1.7
Normal Hemorrhage Damage = 313.8
Critical Hemorrhage Damage = 721.74
---USING SWORDS--- (Using a sword I saw the other day)
AP = 980*
MH Damage (
Shadowrend Longblade
) = 137.5
OH Damage (Shadowrend Longblade) = 68.75
Total Weapon Damage = 206.25
Lethality = .30
Sinister Calling = .10
Damage Factor = 1.20
Critical Factor = 2.30
Normalization factor = 2.4
Normal Hemorrhage Damage = 449.1
Critical Hemorrhage Damage = 1032.93
---Difference---
Normal Hemorrhage Damage = 135.3
Critical Hemorrhage Damage = 311.19
---
So, it appears here are my choices with advantages/disadvantages.
1. Hemo/Daggers
a. Hemo damage
b. Buff
c. Glyph of hemo (40% bonus to buff)
d. 10 less energy used
e. Ambush (I know, noobish, but ShS, ambush, KS with premed is often lethal plus the ability to vanish and hit again)
f. (-25% less damage per stike)
I've read that I am being a bit green by being mesmerized by the pretty yellows and the fact I take anywhere from 50% to 100% of a target's health off (non-plate) in one second. This is probably why I have never concerned myself with what happens afterwards. Even with my lack of experience, with ShS, ambush, and 5 points - plus a vanish, blind, and Shadow Dance - at my disposal, it is hard to pass up such an opener. Admittedly, I shy away from plate which I know is not optimal rogue bahavior.
2. Hemo/Swords
a. Hemo damage
b. Buff
c. Glyph of hemo (40% bonus to buff)
d. 10 less energy used
e. Garrote or CS (No ambush)
f. 25% more damage per strike
3. Sin Strike
a. SS damage (whatever that is, did not do math)
b. Glyph that occasionally awards extra CP
c. Versatile (any weapon)
d. (5/10 more energy)
e. All other attacks available
I just changed from Hemo to using SS as base attack because I am reluctant to come off of daggers. I need to respec because I do not like setup. So, what you guys are saying is that it is either Hemo/Swords(Mace) or SS and my daggers? Hemo daggers with all of the buffs is not comparable to SS and daggers?
Thanks again for reading all of that
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57901
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