This site makes extensive use of JavaScript.
Please enable JavaScript in your browser.
Classic Theme
Thottbot Theme
Enhancement and mana regen
Post Reply
Return to board index
Post by
MegaVolt
The cookie cutter Enhancement build from EJ has points both in
Shamanistic Focus
and
Improved Stormstrike
.
Looking at
Shamanistic Rage
I'd assume that with high level gear (ilvl 245 weapons) the mana return from it is huge and that mana regeneration (especially in a raid with replenishment) will not be an issue anymore?
Is it valid (or: at which average ilvl is it valid) to remove the points from Shamanistic Focus and Improved Stormstrike? Or will Enhancement Shamans then get into mana trouble, regardless of gear?
Post by
tomgc
SR is a 60 second cooldown buff with a 15 second uptime - this means that (assuming you don't need to pop SR for defense, which you often do) you have to last 45 seconds with whatever other regen tools you have. This is something that will never change with gear, only more mana makes more Mp5 using replenishment.
Now, as for actually ditching regen talents you need to know what the build is for. In a fight with BoK, AI, MotW, Replenishment, (Improved) BoW can you avoid being oom enough to pop SR and go back to full, with no other regen talents? Yes. However, since I often to daily heroic and 10 mans (can't even guarantee replenishment...) i'm not willing to dump ISS. And in 3.3 we'll be burning even more mana.
Also. SR goes by AP not damage, top end weapons won't make much of a difference.
Post by
alpha5099
It's definitely doable to go without Improved Stormstrike, but I can't say I've seen many specs that skip Shamanistic Focus. I think without it Earth Shock becomes too big a drain on your mana. It's also pretty high up in the tree, the only other point you could spend to get to the next teir would be in Imrpoved Shields, which is as far as I know a fairly minimal DPS-gain, particularly when the alternative is going OOM.
If you check out EJ's BiS Enhancement thread, you can find the spec that is currently simming out best, which does forgo ISS (but takes SF):
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#hVhNVZhbxsoxdIhusouVo
As for when you can afford to take those points out? Hard to say. If I remember correctly, there were some people who weren't taking the points (or only taking one point) right when 3.1 came out and ISS got redesigned, so it's possible you could get away without it in Uld gear. The best answer is just to try out for yourself. If SR is consistently coming off cooldown and you've got more than enough mana, you could probably stand to reevaluate ISS. Try respeccing to figure out if you can not go OOM without it.
Post by
tomgc
Forgo ISS? Isn't ISS the better talent point per point?
Post by
181706
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Haedross
Unleashed Rage gives the shaman expertise now. So it wouldn't be very smart to take points out of it and use it somewhere else.
Post by
MegaVolt
Unleashed Rage gives the shaman expertise now. So it wouldn't be very smart to take points out of it and use it somewhere else.
Who is talking about Unleashed Rage?
Just to clearify (my Shaman is actually Elemental / Restoration right now, I'm thinking about going Enhance since I'm not really having fun with Elemental so I can not test it myself yet):
Am I correct in assuming that with decent (let's say Ulduar level) gear Shamanistic Rage will completely fill up a Shamans mana pool as long as he is attacking something for the full duration?
Post by
Fulgurah
At any gear level, SR will fill up your mana pool probably before the full duration, especially if you get one or two WF procs during that time. Shaminstic Rage is an incredible regen tool, undoubtedly, but I think the best thing about it is the mini-shield wall every minute. Anymore, I use SR nearly exclusively for the defensive capabilities when I know I'm about to take some incoming damage. Examples in ToGC include: Gormok pounds after all 4 snobolds are out, if melee gets targetted by Bile/Toxin during Worms, if an infernal flies over to be during Jaraxxus, when I'm focused during Champs, if orbs are coming my way and there's no way to avoid them during Twins and of course during Penetrating Cold on Anub.
Is it possible to drop ISS? Yes. Would I recommend it...ehhhhhh. ISS is especially helpful for 5-mans and even 10-mans when you may not have Replenishment or a lot of down-time between pulls. Also, there can be situations (like Anub HM) where you are using CL with your Maelstrom procs and spamming Magma that you're going to hurt on mana, especially if you're waiting to use SR defensively. ISS comes in handy in those situations.
TL;DR: SR is incredible, refills a mana bar WITHOUT a lot of gear and remains probably the best defensive CD a dps class has.
Post by
Haedross
Who is talking about Unleashed Rage?
btw, if you always go with a properly specced DK (frost) and hunter (the AP buff) you can also skip points in imp WF and UR ;)
^ He was talking about Unleashed Rage, unless shamans have some other ability that can be abbreviated as UR.
But yea, as Inertius says, Shamanistic Rage is incredible. With Shamanistic Rage, Shamanistic Focus and one point into Improved Stormstrike, I feel that is all I need to make sure that I don't go oom for anything. And if somehow I do come up struggling with mana, I can always use water shield to help.
Post by
MegaVolt
^ He was talking about Unleashed Rage, unless shamans have some other ability that can be abbreviated as UR.
Oh right, I totally missed that line. Sorry ;)
Yea, taking points out of UR is a bad idea. I'd also like to keep points in the totems, the totems are one of the the main reasons I want to change from Elemental to Enhance.
About the initial mana regen thingy:
I don't really get it. People here say that Shamanistic Rage will always completely fill your mana pool, even without high ilvl gear.
Additionally without those 45 seconds in which SR is not active an Enhancement Shaman will not be able to burn through his mana pool completely.
But still most people say that spending points in other mana regen talents makes sense.
Even if you use SR as defensive cooldown it will have quite a high uptime, right? The cooldown is low enough so that it can be used in between high damage phases, too. If SR alone is enough to sustain the Shaman why would I ever want to take any other regen talents?
Post by
Fulgurah
For the reasons I outlined above. And the CD is short, but not always enough to keep it for a defensive CD AND use it when you need mana. ISS is a great buffer to ensure that you can use SR when you want, not always out of necessity. If you're jamming Magma Totem and Chain Lightning on Anub, you're going to be hurting for mana eventually.
Post by
tomgc
tl;dr See how your mana is in 5 mans, 10 mans and 25 mans popping SR both regeneratively and defensively. Then see if you're willing to ditch regen talents.
And you really shouldn't have mana troubles in 10+ mans... if you have replenishment you're pretty much set.
Post by
181706
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MegaVolt
right, forgot about the UR part that gives expertise....
Well, let me rephrase that then. When you have a hunter + you are capped expertise without that talent (doe does 30/30 expertise has any value over 26/26?)
As far as I know it has not (except for fights in which you can't attack from behind).
But why would you try to get exp gear if you have the talent? You could use your gear score to boost other stats (AP for example) and you just take less gear with exp on it then.
Post by
181706
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
GenXCub
Mega, I just thought I'd ask since you haven't stated it... If you remove those talents in your OP, where would you put them?
Post by
120504
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Buttery
When they made the change, i immediately dropped imp. SS and went to see how my mana was. I was getting lower, but still didnt go oom, so I dont think it's really needed (I was Uld progression at the time, I think).
For 5 mans, you need to be a bit more careful with totem management and mob targeting to make sure you get the full duration out of it. It's doable and I havent had any mana problems in 5 mans unless I forget to use SR.
Now for some maths.
In our rotation, lets say it's 1 SS, LL, ES and LB, which uses 8, 4, 18 and 10% base mana. That gives us 40% base mana cost per rotation. ISS gives us 20% return, 50% chance with one point, so 10% return over time. SF reduces shock cost by 45%, which is roughly 8% reduced base mana use. 10% vs. 8% for one talent point.
ISS is clearly better, unless you are doing lots of range dmg for some reason. This is inteneded, just look at where they are placed in the trees. Do you need either one? no, but for one point, where else are you gonna put em?
I personally use SF simply for fights like onyxia, but what do i know, i have two points in ghost wolf cuz i'm lazy and it's very kewl. =D
EDIT: Spelling
Post Reply
You are not logged in. Please
log in
to post a reply or
register
if you don't already have an account.