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Disc pve - where do we fit in?
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Post by
rainkeltoia
Er, my flash heal as disc is way better than holy... Where did you get that impression from exactly?
I believe he means in effect due to the fact that holy has more SP from talents due to spirit = spellpower therefore more powerful Flash Heals from that?
Aside, thank you for all this info. Trying to "prove" your place as a disc healer being at the bottom of the "meters" is rough, even though your tank lives (when MT healing) and you're doing mitigation that can't be tracked.
Post by
OscarDivine
with Grace + Improved Flash heal, Holy is not superior for this spell. Nobody would argue that Disco has ANYTHING on Holy spec's GREATER heal though.
Post by
60618
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
dhampir1989
Can disc achieve over 10k crits from flash heal, that can procc instant 6k heal right after?
No, but we will crit it considerably more often, and reduce subsequent damage. Swings and roundabouts.
Post by
OscarDivine
Surge of light isn't a spell that increases your healing done per unit time. It allows for mana conservation as well as mobility. Given a 1.2 second cast time on Flash of Light versus a 1.2 second GCD, you're not really gaining any ground in terms of healing done with a SoL proc especially since it cannot crit. It does allow you a period of mobility for that 1.2 seconds though, which can be more than enough time needed to run out of fire or some sort or re-position.
DHampir also makes a good point about crit chance, which is higher through both Disco gear AND spec. The increased number of crits as well as the increased amount of DAs that result CAN make up the difference. 8k Crit + 2.4k DA = 10.4k Damage "controlled", which is similar (though higher) than your example with Holy. If you add in the following Flash heal (which would take the same amount of time as your SoL proc given GCD), we're looking at very similar numbers, but only if the follow up flash heal doesn't crit. If it does, Disco takes the lead by a large margin.
The big difference is the use of Mitigating shields/DAs which prevent damage and can save a tank when a Heal cannot. The OTHER difference is that a Holy priest cannot keep up healing on a tank as long as a Disco Priest can, I don't care who you are unless you're geared improperly for Holy, you can't win that fight.
Post by
60618
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Post by
ZoraLink
I am not a "tank heal" specced holy priest myself and as such I miss test of faith and 2 points from sere. .
I stopped there.
Post by
309579
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Post by
Paolo
Fozgaz, stop giving advice till you fix that ( and DA doesn't stack)
DA does indeed
stack
, to a maximum of 10k.
Oh, the irony.
Post by
318206
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Post by
60618
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
karlusdavius
I gave up test of faith in order to get Lightwell (been faithfull user ever since it was introduced, actually teached my tanks to use it) and "Body and Soul".
i cried.
I find having one point in Seredipity to be enough for my healing, which I usually don't even notice.
cried a bit more.
I have divine fury at 4 points, I don't need haste to GH. GH is something you precast, and for me with 30% haste it is too fast for such task, I wan't my GCD up before I cancel the spellcast.
Sorry? 30% Haste? Fancy linking me your gear/armory?
SO, until we sort you out, please stop giving advice.
Discipline doesn't have to crit 10K (Oh, while were here, fancy linking me some stats that show your Flash Heal criting that much?)
DA is way more effective and makes the numbers up, and then some. Holy has nothing on Discipline and it's flash heal.
Post by
60618
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Post by
MegaVolt
Tank healing
Pally > Disc Priest = Shaman > Holy Priest = Druid
Raid healing
Druid = Holy Priest = Resto Shaman > Disco Priest > Pally
I'd basically agree with that list but change some minor details:
Tank healing
Pally > Disc Priest = Shaman > Druid > Holy Priests
Raid healing (stationary)
Druid = Holy Priest = Resto Shaman > Disco Priest > Pally
Raid healing (lots of movement)
Druid > Holy Priest > Disco Priest = Resto Shaman > Pally
Shamans really hurt a LOT in movement heavy fights. Druids can produce some pretty nice numbers on the tank, however I think they will get problems with sustainability quite fast. And they don't offer anything like Inspiration of Ancestral healing which is why I'd rank both Shamans and disc Priests higher. Paladins ofc are on top, BoL is OP.
It's not that disc is really weak imho ... it's just that Paladins totally dominating tank healing have taken the niche of disc Priests. With plenty of Paladins around all the time and the Shamans weakness for raid healing movement heavy fights (which pushes them to tank heals) there just aren't enough tank healing spots left in most raids.
One of my guild's trees just upgraded his computer. Prior to that, he shunned addons like they were rogues. So he healed using (yes) the default UI, which means he did everything he could to avoid raid healing. He crafted his toon into a single target machine. I had other trees inspect him and they were quite impressed. His skills are phenomenal as well.
Have a look
, I have no idea about trees. For all I know, the T9 bonuses (and the new computer) may have nudged him in a different direction, although he's still often on tank duty.
In my opinion he is doing it wrong. Unless he has an INSANE amout of haste his Nourish won't be a 1s cast.
Nature's Grace
is an absolutely vital talent for single target throughput and with the high crit rate that Nourish has it will be up most of the time. This talent is also the reason why 3.3 (contrary to what some non-Druids QQ on the official forums) won't change much for Druid tank healing: We have a 1s Nourish already. The GotEM change will only have a minor effect (it only does something when NG is not up which, when tank healing, shouldn't be often).
He also has Imp. Tranquility which is a completely useless talent. Tranquility only heals your group and as such the spell is totally and utterly crap. Spending talent points in it is about as bad as gemming strength.
He is missing
Empowered Touch
which is also a vital throughput talent for Druids.
This
would be a proper Druid tank healing build. Notice the 2 free points. They can be used either for 5/5 GotEM or for 5/5 Tranquil Spirit. For tank healing he won't cast that many HoTs so reducing the mana cost of his main heal (Nourish) might be a good idea. If he is never running into mana issues (I think he most probably will) then 5/5 GotEM will help him a little bit with throughput.
Also notice the change in glyphs: For pure single target healing the Regrowth glyph is quite nice. He can refresh it while the DoT is still active, giving him some nice bonus healing.
But as I said earlier: Sustainability will probably be low, Nourish is just too expensive to spam for long fights and Druid mana regeneration generally is quite bad (the claim that Druids "never run out of mana" only is valid for raid healing by spamming the very cheap Rejuvenation and using
this Idol
- with Nourish spam which is way more expensive then Rejuvenation and without that Idol to help them out a Druid healer will OOM very fast). He will have nice single target throughput but any Paladin will easily be able to compete with that while at the same time healing a secondary target with BoL. Any Shaman will also match his single target throughput and he is missing a buff like Ancestral Healing which in the end will make Shaman healers (slightly) superior.
A bit more on topic, about disc Priests:
I read again and again that disc Priests are not so much healers but "damage mitigators". I don't get that.
Let's look at tank healing: The tank will have the Weakened Soul debuff active on him all the time. Which is an effective cooldown on PW:S. The shield simply can not mitigate much damage on the tank, Weakened Soul makes sure that it is not active most of the time. Mitigating like 7k damage every 15 seconds from a boss that hits for 20k at least 7 or 8 times in those 15 seconds really isn't all that much.
Then there is Divine Aegis. That's some serious mitigation, no doubt about it. But by its very nature it can only ever be 30% of a Priests critical heals, meaning that with low hps this form of mitigation will also be low.
So where exactly is this massive mitigation? I just don't see it, at least not on single target tank heals.
As discussed in depth already a disc Priest will only make a second class raid healer. Druids, Shamans and holy Priests will be superior. Yes, when spamming PW:S on the raid then the disc Priest will be a major mitigator - but he will still be bad. Healing that damage as holy will be more effective then preventing it as disc.
Post by
dhampir1989
A bit more on topic, about disc Priests:
I read again and again that disc Priests are not so much healers but "damage mitigators". I don't get that.
Let's look at tank healing: The tank will have the Weakened Soul debuff active on him all the time. Which is an effective cooldown on PW:S. The shield simply can not mitigate much damage on the tank, Weakened Soul makes sure that it is not active most of the time. Mitigating like 7k damage every 15 seconds from a boss that hits for 20k at least 7 or 8 times in those 15 seconds really isn't all that much.You also get a nice 3% damage reduction from my cast of it, for the duration of Weakened Soul.
And if a boss is hitting for 20k, 7 or 8 times, your tanks' avoidance is sorely lacking, as avoidance occurs before damage to the shield.
And the glyphed heal that can proc DA, dont forget that.
Then there is Divine Aegis. That's some serious mitigation, no doubt about it. But by its very nature it can only ever be 30% of a Priests critical heals, meaning that with low hps this form of mitigation will also be low.High crit chance. Rapid heals. Pre-stacking. It adds up fast. You also like non-sequiturs, our HPS may be lower, but its very critty.
So where exactly is this massive mitigation? I just don't see it, at least not on single target tank heals.3% from RH, +10% physical from Inspiration. I dont know any tank who turns down that much mitigation. And thats before bubbles.
As discussed in depth already a disc Priest will only make a second class raid healer. Druids, Shamans and holy Priests will be superior. Yes, when spamming PW:S on the raid then the disc Priest will be a major mitigator - but he will still be bad. Healing that damage as holy will be more effective then preventing it as disc.
I wasnt aware healing damage was better than not taking it in the first place.
Post by
167408
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
karlusdavius
Then there is Divine Aegis. That's some serious mitigation, no doubt about it. But by its very nature it can only ever be 30% of a Priests critical heals, meaning that with low hps this form of mitigation will also be low.
Dear god, HPS means #$%^ all. learn that. get it out of your stupid mind.
A Discipline priest is the same as a TBC Shadow Priest. There damage was no allowed to go as high as others because of how VT worked back then. Same with Discipline. If there heals were allowed to scale higher then the mitigation would be too great.
We also don;t have high HPS because WERE SINGLE TARGET HEALERS! We don't have CoH or WG.
30% might not seem much. But when your tanks dodge 3 attacks in succession, Penance and flash heal combo can be a very quick way to stack that mitigation up. 3 Hits from Penance alone would hit 4,500 Mitigation just from DA. Couple that with a nice 8k Crit from Flash Heal we have 6,900 mitigation. Thats not including PW:S.
As discussed in depth already a disc Priest will only make a second class raid healer. Druids, Shamans and holy Priests will be superior. Yes, when spamming PW:S on the raid then the disc Priest will be a major mitigator - but he will still be bad. Healing that damage as holy will be more effective then preventing it as disc.
If you don't get it, then please dear god try it out. Because it is goldy what a discipline priest does without most people knowing. But from the last setance, you really just don;t get anything at all about a priest. Please go away
On a small note, the Might stream on MMO last night was of a discipline priest. He had 10k Flash Crits with around 6k Penance Crits. He was on PC targets with a paladin and pretty much owned it.
Post by
318206
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