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Dirty Backstabbing son of a...
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Post by
Leuthas
Alright, first off I'd like to make in known that I am just starting off with my Rogue, only level 33. And let's face it, I'm still at the point of standing still doing nothing for 3 seconds while trying to Vanish. >.>
I read a
threat
thread or two in this forum regarding a Rogue's Backstabbing, but none of them seemed to answer my questions. What I want to know is if I can manage to put out my share of dps in these lowbie dungeons by sneaking up (stealth) behind a mob, Ambushing then just hitting Backstab every time I have enough energy, and Evisrecating every time I fill up my 5-point bar. Will I be holding up, or am I nerfing myself?
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143451
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307081
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38059
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344433
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Post by
Leuthas
Well perhaps I should put in more detail. I am going full Sub. spec, and will be stopping at level 60 for raids an PvP. So, with Sub. spec Backstab costs 45 energy...
Anywho, I'm curious as to what you mean by combo point builder? I ask this, because I can hit all 5 points after one-two backstabs (Backstab crits give an extra point if specced correctly, right?), because Ambush gives three.
Post by
blackmarquetbaby
60? for raids? is this some sort of strange version of PvE twinking? Why? And why sub with ambush? What? It made so much more sense before you clarified.
read stickies?
Post by
Leuthas
60? for raids?
Yes, for raids. You know... before BC? Before LK? When raids required raiders?
is this some sort of strange version of PvE twinking?
Twinking? You could call it that. But more than less, it is just playing endgame.
Why?
Why do you play WoW?
And why sub with ambush? What?
Subtlety, correct me if I'm wrong, is essentially the only tree that directly benefits Ambush is it not?
It made so much more sense before you clarified.
Allowing you to make your own assumptions is usually simpler than knowing the reality of something.
read stickies?
Yes, I would recommend you do. Here are some helpful links:
http://www.wowhead.com/?forums&topic=23878
http://www.wowhead.com/?forums&topic=59923
http://www.wowhead.com/?forums&topic=62396
http://www.wowhead.com/?forums&topic=47096
http://www.wowhead.com/?forums&topic=69796
http://www.wowhead.com/?forums&topic=77068
Post by
blackmarquetbaby
lol, let me clarify:
why are you planning on raiding through 40 man raids at lvl 60? The game has been completely retooled and has made those raid environments much easier. Additionally, you will HAVE to do certain things that will give you experience.... like raiding, which will, however slowly, take you over your self-imposed lvl 60 cap.
Do you have 39 other people who want to do this with you? Very few people stick at lvl 60 just to run vanilla raids. Most of the significant content that is actually itemized properly for the game is applicable to end game content.
Do you plan on farming gear from BC quests in Hellfire Peninsula? The gear itemization jumps in BC content to be almost as good as some T2 gear in WoW vanilla.
I am just curious why cause... as you say, raids require raiders.... and if you can't find 39 other raiders, than raiding without raiders makes raiding a pretty hard raid to raid raid raid raid.
and 60 content is not endgame anymore.... it is now a lvl 80 cap
i also asked why sub with ambush because... it's not particularly a traditional build, even at 60. A lvl 60... PVE... twink... probably wouldn't go sub... since vanilla wow was... again... itemized differently, and your damage potential is nerfed by speccing... i am assuming 40 some points in to sub for HaT.... and the last few elsewhere.
edit* the hardest lvl 60 raid is gone... and is now a lvl 80 raid.
Post by
Leuthas
why are you planning on raiding through 40 man raids at lvl 60? The game has been completely retooled and has made those raid environments much easier. Additionally, you will HAVE to do certain things that will give you experience.... like raiding, which will, however slowly, take you over your self-imposed lvl 60 cap.
The cap problem is being worked on, and currently being dicussed by the devs.
Do you have 39 other people who want to do this with you? Very few people stick at lvl 60 just to run vanilla raids. Most of the significant content that is actually itemized properly for the game is applicable to end game content.
My guild was founded for this specific purpose, and yes, when the time comes I will have the personel necessary - which is 30.
Do you plan on farming gear from BC quests in Hellfire Peninsula? The gear itemization jumps in BC content to be almost as good as some T2 gear in WoW vanilla.
No, because they are not on par with T2 epics, and epic weapons.
and 60 content is not endgame anymore.... it is now a lvl 80 cap
Oh, endgame is all opinion based. It was/is, just a point of view.
and your damage potential is nerfed by speccing...
Please elaborate, how so.
edit* the hardest lvl 60 raid is gone... and is now a lvl 80 raid.
Judging from personal experience from progression raiding through Naxx40 and AQ40 upon their release, I would have to say AQ40's fights were more difficult... and that damned quest chain (Arg!). That's opinion too, though.
Post by
blackmarquetbaby
interesting...
can you quote a blue on "devs are working on it," because from what I have heard the fact is, for all intents and purposes the opposite of that.
It is an interesting course to take, certainly wouldn't be mine. You probably don't need the developers to fix it, just for you to do this on a private server.
Your damage is being nerfed for PVE because for raid bosses, especially Pre-BC, you are going to need sustained DPS, and unless you plan on running HAT, you are not gonna be able to sustain that dps purely with subtlety talents, which are geared more towards burst, and quick openers. Much of your damage potential is lost by not being able to spec in to the more sustained DPS talents at the top of either tree.
Additionally, the better
weapons
available to you are swords, since you do not have access to the daggers available in Naxx. The swords there are SIGNIFICANT upgrades over the daggers.
As for a lvl 60 PVE spec a sub spec would look something like
this
but again, you are hurting your sustained dps.
you are better off
combat swords
or some variation of it. If you are gonna go daggers, your best bet is a mutilate build. Backstab used to be much more desired but is only a viable build when specced in to combat, even then, it is far behind swords or fists.
Your stats will suffer from itemization, with hit and expertise cap being harder to hit (which is another reason to spec in to combat) and your full T-2(?) being unavailable to you due to naxx not being there.
*edit shout out to bootspurr. Backstab builds are not FAR behind other builds, but are still behind.
Post by
289682
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Post by
Leuthas
interesting...
can you quote a blue on "devs are working on it," because from what I have heard the fact is, for all intents and purposes the opposite of that.
It is an interesting course to take, certainly wouldn't be mine. You probably don't need the developers to fix it, just for you to do this on a private server.
Your damage is being nerfed for PVE because for raid bosses, especially Pre-BC, you are going to need sustained DPS, and unless you plan on running HAT, you are not gonna be able to sustain that dps purely with subtlety talents, which are geared more towards burst, and quick openers. Much of your damage potential is lost by not being able to spec in to the more sustained DPS talents at the top of either tree.
Additionally, the better
weapons
available to you are swords, since you do not have access to the daggers available in Naxx. The swords there are SIGNIFICANT upgrades over the daggers.
As for a lvl 60 PVE spec a sub spec would look something like
this
but again, you are hurting your sustained dps.
you are better off
combat swords
or some variation of it. If you are gonna go daggers, your best bet is a mutilate build. Backstab used to be much more desired but is only a viable build when specced in to combat, even then, it is far behind swords or fists.
Your stats will suffer from itemization, with hit and expertise cap being harder to hit (which is another reason to spec in to combat) and your full T-2(?) being unavailable to you due to naxx not being there.
*edit shout out to bootspurr. Backstab builds are not FAR behind other builds, but are still behind.
Well thank you for the tips, always nice to learn a bit more about the class.
Anywho, I hadn't realized that a full sub build wasn't all that capable of sustaining PvE dps against a boss. However if I understand you correctly, it is still acceptable for PvP, where burst is required? Also, about the swords vs. daggers. If you look at Death's Sting and
Imperial
Blessed Qiraji Pugio, you would find them to be superior to most any level 60 sword pre-Naxx. Speaking of Naxx, that is all T3, there is no T2 in Naxx40 - so full T2 and T2.5 is still fully available to me.
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=21244
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=21126
Are far superior to any swords I know of in game, still attainable and at level 60, of course.
And if you don't mind, could you explain what a combat rotation might look like (level 60) as compared to this fail-at-pve rotation?
Post by
blackmarquetbaby
lvl 60 combat rotation is the same at 60 as it is at 80,
SS-SnD-SS-Rupture-SS-Eviscerate.
Pop CD's simultaneously (trink, AR, blade flurry)
use killing spree whenever it is up.
If you only have one glyph spot, go with Sinister Strike. If you have two go with sinister strike and Rupture. Normally your third would be filled with Killing spree, but you don't have that.
I still wanna see that blue post to prove that they are fixing lvl 60 content.
I did my filters wrong, those daggers are viable. In fact, i would say you might be better off going mutilate with those being the primary BiS gear at 60 for you. Unfortunately, it is not optimized for the current spec requirements, but they are definitely good. I would tend to say, though, that you will be using a slow hard hitting sword in your MH and a fast sword in your OH for some time, before getting those daggers. Mutilate is gonna be hard, though, cause one of the primary reasons it is competitive is because of HFB, but if you spec that far down in to mutilate you won't be getting relentless strikes.
IN THAT CASE.... as was pointed out by bootspurr (go search his posts) it might be better to go combat backstab. Get the fastest OH you can get and use it as an energy generator, and get the slowest, hardest hitting MH you can get. I dunno, you may have to make your own spreadsheet.
Post by
307081
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
blackmarquetbaby
you took the time to add lvl 60 gear in to a spreadsheet?
I bow to you for that. Unfortunately, though, most 60 gear is not really optimized for talents like Combat Potency. It came later....
Post by
Leuthas
I still wanna see that blue post to prove that they are fixing lvl 60 content.
...discussed.
Source: GM assurance (lol). I appologize for not getting back to you sooner.
I am still curious if the Sub. Ambush/Backstab spec would be usable (effectively) in level 60 PvP. This is the main reason I am planning to stay at 60, because you can dps raids at any level (well, you can dps level 60 raids at level 80).
your OH for some time, before getting those daggers.
My guild runs MC, BWL, AQ20, AQ40, ZG and Ony weekly. The Pugio will be easy, unfortunately Death's Sting will take a while. I only see it roughly once every 7 runs; and the Twins are still a b**ch to kill off. (Still working on getting a solid group together, theoretically, 10 level 80 dps at a minimum of 3k dps can burn them down through their heals. When I used to PuG it, I would have to take 30-40 people, as most would only hold around 1k dps at level 80.)
Post by
blackmarquetbaby
you can not enter a 60 raid at lower levels, there are level requirements for raids, aren't there? When i was running those raids there were.
Assurance... is that on the official wow forums?
with sub you are probably not gonna need backstab. You will probably just be using shadow dance and stunning/bursting opponent down. Backstab can be used, but it's not really ideal compared with all the other abilities you have, which are gonna be more DPE efficient.
Post by
blackmarquetbaby
oh, you mean your Guild Master. Your Guild master is wrong. Go search through the Blizz tracker on official wow website and there has been no such announcement. Sorry bub, but blizz has no intention of re-itemizing game or retooling lvling for twinks.
Post by
Leuthas
I'm sorry, I guess I didn't clarify that my Rogue is level 33, but my main is a level 80 Paladin with whom I do the raids. Obviously my Rogue is a bit squeeeshy for Ahn'Qiraj.
No.
Interest
ed
ing, since I am not yet able to spec fully into Sub, I haven't gotten a good grasp of the abilities I will have. Essentially what I do now (for quest mobs) is stealth up, Ambush, wait for just enough energy, Gouge, Backstab and usually, they are then dead; if not I use the 5 points I now have and Evis. If Gouge misses (which it seems to like doing) I just hit SS twice for the next two points then Evis.
Sorry bub, but blizz has no intention of re-itemizing game or retooling lvling for twinks.
I made no comment or mention of re-itemizing or retooling. Only a level cap option at level 60, or 70.
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